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Any trace of the Audio Design Recording P200 Manual Phaser and P400 Autophase?

The Audio Design Recording (ADR) P200 Manual Phaser and P400 Autophase (not to be confused with the P400-RS Autophase) are obscure units produced around 1972. They were exhibited at the 1972 APRS Exhibition—where they debuted alongside future greats such as the Moog Minimoog, the Electro-Voice 635A, and the AKG C414—and are listed in a 1974 ad, but then they seem to disappear. A P200 was in the possession of the late Tony Arnold and both the P200 and P400 get a brief mention by former ADR employee Ian Harley in an interview, but they are otherwise unmentioned online. No photos of either unit exist online except in a 1972 ad that follows the APRS report. The only unit that recurs online and has photographs is the P400-RS Autophase, which I have submitted to Equipboard and tentatively identified as Tony McPhee's "Audio Design Phaser" on Solid (1974). The P400-RS may be what is described as the P400 in the 1974 ad and by Harley.

Studio Sound, September 1972, "APRS '72 Report", pg. 35

Audio Design recording's P400 Autophase unit created considerable interest; at the flick of a switch it was automatically producing some remarkable phasing effects. Phasing control is derived from the input signal, so the same effect will be repeated on subsequent takes. This unit, and a stereo version of it, will be available in September. Audio & Design also showed a manual phaser which is available as a 40 mm desk module—the P200.

Studio Sound, September 1972, Audio Design Recording ad, pg. 42

P200 Phaser

In the format of a desk 40mm module, this manually operated phasing unit produces a full phasing effect, with a multiple action filter. Other controls include input attenuator; in/out switch and variable mix facility. Unit available on short delivery.

P400 Autophase

P400-M Mono

P400-S Stereo

A completely new approach to phasing, the P400 Autophase provides the usual manual control in addition to its unique automatic function. Phasing action is controlled by the signal being processed or from an external signal source. The truly remarkable effect can be identically reproduced time after time. Ideal for recurring or live performances.

Studio Sound, February/March 1974, Audio Design Recording ad, pg. 19

P400 AUTOPHASE programme controlled phasing effect unit in stereo rack mounting format.

P200 Manual Phaser—a simple yet effective phasing module.

R/E/P Forums, Arny, reply #431 (April 4, 2007) on "Helios photo search." by phantom309

I would hope to know something about these products having serviced & still own most of what A & D manufactured in those days, I have just supplied two very sought E 800 EQ’s (Very Rare) I also have Scamp Racks, F769X-R Vocals Stressors, the 760X-RS X 2U Rack Limiter/comp/Expander unit, Express Limiter, E900N’s & F760N’s, P200 Phaser & 2 X Transdynamics,

I still service any A & D equipment, and have the Tools, Parts, Jigs & Manuals required to carry out this work.

KMR Audio, "Audio Design Recording | The History Of The Compex" by Nick Mitchell (Interview with Ian Harley of ADR UK) (February 22, 2018)

We also designed in 1973 the ADR P200 and P400 phasers which used photocells to control dynamic comb filters, the P400 was the auto phaser, rack-mounted stereo version and the P200 was a manual vertical plug-in module - very nice sounding units.

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The puzzling thing is which console(s) of the day supported this "desk 40mm module" format?

API 500 Series is close to 40mm wide, but not quite.

The "A" size of Danner Cassettes are 4cm/40mm, but that's a German format that I doubt a UK company like ADR would be building for.

The P200 in that ad photo is way too short to be in ADR's own "Scamp" rack format, so I'm guessing Scamp was something they intro'd deeper into the 1970s.

ADR famously made modules for Helios consoles, (Helio's founder Dick Swettenham was a friend and collaborator with the ADR guys, from what I can tell) but it doesn't seem that any of the formats for those consoles were exactly 40mm wide.

If we knew which consoles supported that format, hunting for deeper info might get a bit easier.

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There are so many of these formats from the 70s and 80s. In america alone you had spectrasonics 100 which was adopted by multiple console makers who used 101 and 110 cards, whatever quad 8 and sphere used, api 500, allison 700 based on the console paul buff made for zappa, valley 800 which was also Paul buff, dbx 900 that wss also adopted by aphex.... I'm probably missing some

The old vocalstressor and compex are really cool but I've never run into a manual flanger or auto flanger

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When did API 500 series finally become the last-format-standing?

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It was winning the war in the 90s and when API was acquired by ATI (the company that made the awesome Paragon live desk) in the early 2000s I remember them throwing the format open... at first there were kit companies, I seem to remember seventh circle was early on the scene with riffs on the 312 preamp that used different opamps and iron but basically the api topology at +/-15v. API is a direct descendant of quad8 and sphere... and I think Saul Walker had something to do with Melcor too. Quad8 is also highly tied up with Jensen and Cinemag. Cinemag used to be Reichenbach who supplied all the transformers to Q8 and Dean Jensen worked at quad8 and their later op amps are baby steps toward the world famous jensen 990. He also got into the transformer game obviously and we all know how good Jensens are. 500 series was originally for eq and compression only, the 300 series was for preamps, line amps and what they called boost amps. The current 512c is a 312 preamp in a 500 form factor with some additional features like a ballistic meter and jfet direct input filling up the larger faceplate. At various points api has tried to market 300 racks since they still make the original cards, but they never seem to catch on i guess since there aren't any 3rd party products. For awhile there was a 200 series, just for 212 preamps. All x12 preamps are essentially the same circuit consisting of a 1:7 transformer feeding a 2520 opamp balanced by a quad-or-bifiliar output transformer that allows you to select for a little passive gain bump on most variations via a switch that puts extra windings in line. Some 500 versions have a trim control and the aforementioned boost amp between the actual mic preamp and transformer. They all sound basically the same unless you overload them which is what the 1:1output switch or trim are for. Modern folks like dirt. Different versions allow you to coax saturation from different places, 2520 or output transformer.

For what it's worth, I own valley 800 gear and dbx 900 and they're both solid formats with nice modules. 900 was pretty ubiquitous in live sound rigs when I was young. Both have higher voltage rails than 500, although I don't know how much difference 2 or 3volts a rail makes. A 990 on the other hand is a +/-24v affair (you can go lower but why?) and exudes imaging and headroom while the quad8 am series amps all ran at a whopping +/-28!!!! Almost double the api 2520, although I think the Jensen will still win in a headroom shootout due to the ability of its output pair to drive virtually any load up to a solid 20dBu IIRC

EDIT: With a super matched monolithic n channel jfet pair, a complementary p channel single, a handful of resistors, 2 caps and a current source diode you can build a surprisingly great op amp on perf board that will kick out around +20 into a 10k or higher load, like a standard fader. Its not unity gain stable configured non inverting but it can be used as an inverting buffer. You can get mk ore gain with a larger feedback resistor but distortion will increase. You can run it on up to 30v bipolar regulated. It's an interesting little circuit I saw in a hifi magazine if anyone is interested in rolling a basic op amp. Its suitable for summing, basic line amp duties, could be made into a very classy boost pedal or with another single ended amp after it you could make a snazzy mic preamp. A pair could be turned into a discrete high voltage version of Ted Fletcher's super balanced input circuit as long as you want more than a gain of 1... actually just 1 could be used to unbalance and amplify balanced lines.

Sorry, back on topic. So the 200 phasers were 3rd party console modules? That sounds odd.

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Thanks for the excellent historical recap!

Sorry, back on topic. So the 200 phasers were 3rd party console modules? That sounds odd.

I don't know how else to interpret "desk 40mm module".

https://imgur.com/a/RMqAuxG

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More info found!

Studio Sound, July 1972, Audio Design Recording ad, pg. 46

NEW PRODUCTS: We are introducing two phasing effect units—P200 Phaser and the P400 Autophase. The P200 is a manual unit in a 40mm module and provides effective phasing at relatively low cost. The P400 Autophase is a sophisticated design with multiple phasing sections that are automatically controlled from the signal being processed or from an external signal source. Just insert, flick a switch and it's all happening, and what's more the exact effect can be duplicated take after take or at any time. If you run a progressive studio can you afford not to have a P400?

APRS 72 EXHIBITION — Stand 41

Studio Sound, March 1973, "FOR SALE—PRIVATE", pg. 74

  • Audio and Design P200 Phaser £40

Studio Sound, September 1974, Audio Design Recording ad (reprint of February/March 1974 ad), pg. 21

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@pkennethk too

So a neve 10 series strip is 45mm... nope

What about a Trident? How wide were the A range and B range? I thought they were wider than a neve. The TSM isn't until 1978 or 79 and the 80 isn't until, you guessed it, 1980.

The allison research 700 series was meant to be compatible with some other frame standard. They're specced at 1 and 5/8" a little over 41mm. 500 series and all api modules actually are 1.5" which clocks in low at 38.1mm. 800 and 900 didn't exist yet.

What about cadac and calrec? And did BBC have a required channel width? They were really fussy back then.

There's the aforementioned Helios desks, I have no idea how wide thise modules were. You almost never see them. I've seen one and didn't get to use it. Looked Neve 1073 sized. 45mm and 40mm areclose. Take a look at picture 5 in this completed reverb listing:

Vintage Helios Console https://reverb.com/item/17883085?utm_source=android-app&utm_medium=android-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=17883085

Note the price tag that could buy a modest home in a mediocre school district on the east coast... or a palace in the midwest.

I think eyesee is right. 40mm is probably helios channel strip width and the height of the 200 is probably the same as the mic pre and eq module, probably the routing module too. None of us are ever going to be a ble to confirm this. Does anyone know Eddie Kramer? He might know.

So do these flangers predate the eventide instant phaser? I think the instant flanger came before the flanger, right? I don't have those dates down. I could Google it but that doesn't prolong an interesting conversation.

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What about cadac and calrec?

McPhee was using a custom Cadac by the time of Crosscut Saw, which postdates Solid (the one picture of it shows no trace of a P200). Prior to the Cadac, he had the Studio [EDIT: Sound, not Studio] Techniques A-Range from De Lane Lea Studios' Kingsway location (I think it's the one pictured on page 24 of the June 1969 issue of Beat Instrumental (magnified; it can also be seen here and in a couple of October 1967 photos of the Barrett-era Pink Floyd (here and here [EDIT: here])). McPhee passed away last year, so we can't ask him whether or not he used the P200 or a version of the P400. If he didn't sell off the equipment from his studio in Haverhill, Suffolk (a.k.a. "T.S. Studios") and his widow hasn't donated or sold off his equipment yet, she might know.

There's the aforementioned Helios desks, I have no idea how wide thise modules were. You almost never see them. I've seen one and didn't get to use it. Looked Neve 1073 sized. 45mm and 40mm areclose.

There are archives of Arnold's old Helios website here and here. Btw, the "Sales" section lists some ADR modules, but no P200s.

So do these flangers predate the eventide instant phaser? I think the instant flanger came before the flanger, right? I don't have those dates down. I could Google it but that doesn't prolong an interesting conversation.

They're contemporary, although it appears the Eventide Clockworks Instant Phaser predates the P400 by almost a year. Among the magazines digitized by World Radio History, it first appears in a promotion for the 41st Audio Engineering Society (AES) Convention on page 24 of the September/October 1971 issue of Recording Engineer / Producer (Re/p).

By the way, why do you keep calling the phasers flangers?

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By the way, why do you keep calling the phasers flangers?

I'm doing a lot of posting from the ICU where I'm sitting with my friend who is fighting what is now officially brain cancer. When the docs are in doing rounds while I'm there I'll hit up equipboard from the waiting room. I'm not at my sharpest. But the instant flaanger fl201 and instant phaser ps101 are 2 different products.

So what's up with Studio Techniques? I've never heard of them. I know Sound Techniques. Studio Techniques is new to me. I'm pretty sure I've seen a shot of Floyd leaning on that desk in the control room from the beat instrumental pg24 shot. It was different than the Getty images you posted, but the same control room. Someone posted it in my large format consoles group. Where did he get that pic? I wonder if any oldsters in that group could help us? Let me explore that. Or maybe my friend Dave Lesage. He was starting out in Europe and the UK at that time just prior to settling in NY. Hmmm

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I'm doing a lot of posting from the ICU where I'm sitting with my friend who is fighting what is now officially brain cancer. When the docs are in doing rounds while I'm there I'll hit up equipboard from the waiting room. I'm not at my sharpest.

Say no more. I wish your friend the best.

I was asking just in case you knew something that might make the ADRs pseudo-phasers.

So what's up with Studio Techniques? I've never heard of them. I know Sound Techniques. Studio Techniques is new to me.

Oops! I meant Sound Techniques. Looks like I mixed up my words, too.

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I just caught that. Sound techniques belongs to PMI now along with Trident. Trident is back for off the shelf studio use with the 88, 78 and 68 models, sound techniques is custom order only. The current base model desk looks nice, it even has impedance switching on the mic preamps, a rare and desirable feature, particularly on a desk pre. Only the rare Forte and Studio desks by focusrite come to mind when I think of that feature and I only assume they had it because the ISA range does. I digress.

I necro posted a thread about De Lane Lea's custom sound techniques on my rare and vintage consoles group to see who (if anyone) had more detailed info. I also included the ad copy for the 200 phaser asking whether it was maybe meant to retro fit to sound techniques frames.

I can call Dave too. That's more of a longshot.

UPDATE: Dave is stumped. I also searched group DIY's ADR schematic archive but there's nothing that predates the scamp rack. If you need to service a compex though, I can get you schematics for every version.

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I'm pretty sure I've seen a shot of Floyd leaning on that desk in the control room from the beat instrumental pg24 shot. It was different than the Getty images you posted, but the same control room.

I thought I linked to it, but I just noticed that I pasted the wrong link when making the hyperlink. I just edited the post to include the right one.

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There are more photos from that shoit. I'll see if I can dig them up

I'm still no closer to figuring out what console has a 40mm channel width. Its gotta be some euro broadcast standard like @pkennethk mentioned yesterday

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UPDATE: Dave is stumped. I also searched group DIY's ADR schematic archive but there's nothing that predates the scamp rack. If you need to service a compex though, I can get you schematics for every version.

I returned to the R/E/P forum thread and discovered even more info, including dead links to pictures(!).

phantom309, April 4, 2007

A&DR didn't must just make compressors and Eq's. We have Flanger (can be seen on the audities.org website) and an "Auto Phasor" that was a perf boarded prototype designed by Swettenham. LDR circuits in that one. The only recording I know of that uses it is 10cc's "Clockwork Creep" on "Sheetmusic" where Lol Creme sings the jet's part of the dialog with the bomb on board. Cool tune.

I have some A&DR history notes around here somewhere, but I'm having a hard time finding it....I'll post it if I can. One thing for sure, it wasn't only Helios gear that got products from them. I have seen a few compressors installed in Neve desks. I know that they got a lot of their design advice from Swettenham, but it wasn't an exclusive relationship.

Arny, April 5, 2007, 10:59:09 AM

I am putting together the A & D (Recording) Story, but I need a little time to go through my Archives,

I should have this together before the weekend.

I am just writing to say that, I am grateful for your interest in this company, "Many Thanks" I shall enjoy putting the story together for you and sharing some nice memorabilia with you.

The one thing I will point out is: Dick Swettenham, never helped with any of the ideas or designs that came out of A & D.

phantom309, April 5, 2007, 11:02:23 AM

While I'm convinced that most of the ADR designs were not Dick's work, this Auto Phasor has his initials on the circuit board. Could this just indicate that he WORKED on it for 10cc? Again, this is all turret board and perf board constructed. Alas, we have NO schematic for it. [Dead Image]

phantom308, April 5, 2007, 12:04:11 PM

The A&DR guy was Mike Beville.

Arny, April 5, 2007, 04:34:46 PM

Yes Mike was one of the directors of three, when the company added (Recording) in brackets after its name in 1967, but before this part in brackets, was added to the name, it was just called Audio & Design which was started during the earlier 60’s.

A lot had happened before Mike Beville came on the scene, […]

[…] That is why I can assure you that Dick Swettenham never put any ideas forward, although Dick as we all know, was more than capable, but not in the case of A & D. because it is a Phaser, there must be a reason why you connect it to ADR ?,

also could you tell me what the initials are or say.

Dick was also very fond of copying as well as inventing, because he was not able to fit a Guitar Players floor Phaser or Flanger into his desk he would reverse engineer this unit, and fit it into vertical metalwork to interface with a Consul, he was great he would do anything to help a fellow musician I did this for Robert Fripp, so he could have all of his germanium floor pedals which was in a Pete Cornish board, raised to shoulder height in a rack. Robert ended up with 16 units in a rack, with a cable going to the Push-Buttons, nothing worse than bending over to adjust something on the floor while holding a Les Paul round your shoulder.

phantom309, April 5, 2007, 05:38:07 PM

The phasor has NO other writing of it other than, DS on a little white label on the perf board. The reason I assumed that it was ADR is because of a conversation I had with Mike. He talked quite a bit about Dick and was helpful with the ADR Flanger that we have...apparently, quite a rare critter. He now lives on in the Northwest US. Also, the 10cc article in SOS mentions the ADR bits in the left wing. Heck, maybe this is a prototype that Dick put together....that would suit me just fine. It's a crazy sounding thing!

Eric sent me a photo today of the first 8 channel, black Heilos that was used for the first 10cc album and "Sheetmusic". In the left hand corner you can see the E800 eq's and a pair of 700 comps. This would be 1971. I'll post it on the Helios thread if I get his permission to do so. VERY unusual looking desk.

Arny, April 6, 2007

Dick only allowed being called this title, but only by his closest friends, to call someone by the word "Dick" itself is an insult, because of this, he always wished to be known as Richard.

Hence :

"Richard Swettenham Associates",

I admit we do call him Dick, but only because we couple it with the word Swettenham, "Dick Swettenham" does not sound so bad as just "Dick".

The reason I asked what exactly is written on this sticker is because he would never place a "Passed by Sticker" on one of his PCB's with "DS" written on it, only "RS" that you can be sure of.

It is either a forgery or someone else’s sticker.

Arny, April 8, 2007, 03:05:27 PM

Here is the early ADR Vertical Phasor. [Dead Image]

Arny, April 8, 2007, 04:20:25 PM

Here is the Drawmer 200 Gate that I spoke about, note the ADR Phaser.

[…]

[Dead Image]

phantom308, April 9, 2007

Mystery solved.

I haven't taken the pics yet, but I took both the Flanger and the Auto Phaser out today and they have identical cards(#968) inside....made by Carl Countryman in 1972. The Flanger has 2 of them, the Phaser has one plus a perf board of unknown function. No name on the phasor, RS (not DS) label on the Flanger,

Countryman 1972 etched in the PCB

phantom308, April 10, 2007, 02:26:45 PM

Cross posted by request from the Helios thread:

RSM F700 by A&DR, AutoPhaser and Flanger by Countryman/A&DR...inspected by RS?

[Dead Image]

phantom308, April 10, 2007, 03:05:38 PM

This is a shot of the first 16 channel/eight bus Strawberry Studios desk sent to me by Eric Stewart. It was NOT a Helios, but rather an Audio & Design (Recording) console. Pete Tattersal and Eric were none to fond of the eq/mic pre's supplied with the desk and had early Helios/Island black modules installed instead. Note the A&DR comps and EQ's in the left side. 1st two 10cc records recorded on this one, the success of which paid for the Red Strawberry desk.

[Dead Image]

phantom308, April 12, 2007

I asked Eric Stewart to clarify this a little further and this was his response:

|Hi Again,

| I say Hybrid because that's exactly

| what it was, we had this desk built by a friend of

| Mike Beville's ( Audio and Design maker ) and we

| gradually put bits of Dicks stuff in there after being

| disappointed with the original cheap mike/line amps,

| and moving up from the 4 track Ampex. to an 8 track | Scully.

| I had met Dick at Olympic studios many times, usually

| crawling out of the back of one of the desks there,

| and we became friends.

| I remember Kieth Grant too, her was a really nice guy,

| very enthusiastic about Olympic of course.

| After letting us have (buy) all these bits for the

| hybrid, he eventually built the Strawberry Red Helios

| Wraparound console to my own spec.

| I remember him telling me in the late '60's that we

| would eventually be recording onto computers. I didn't

| believe him at the time but..........the rest is

| history.

| Bonsoire, Eric.

|

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ADR famously made modules for Helios consoles, (Helio's founder Dick Swettenham was a friend and collaborator with the ADR guys, from what I can tell) but it doesn't seem that any of the formats for those consoles were exactly 40mm wide.

If we knew which consoles supported that format, hunting for deeper info might get a bit easier.

The Audities Foundation has an extensive compilation of Helios console pictures on Facebook, besides a compilation of the “Manor Mobile” Helios console. The latter has photos of a preamp’s guts and the front of a “Lo Cut Phase Filter”, which can give us an idea of the dimensions.

The Facebook page for Audities’ studio has even more. There is a folder of photos of Strawberry Studios (which includes pictures of the Helios phantom308 was talking about) and a “Studio Tour” folder that includes more of that console and a picture of his “Auto Phasor”. It is not an aesthetic match for the P200.

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If its LDR (homebrew vactrol, you seal some sort of variable light source in a tube with an LDR on the other end) based it's likely cribbed from the univibe 4 stage design or something of that lineage. That makes me think maybe Dick cribbed it from a stomp as suggested. Although the first OTA (operational transconductance amplifier) IC was released in 69 and I think that's what's in the phase 90 and small stone. I forget now. It's a CD3080 or something? S9meone jog my memory. Most pedal phasers utilize OTAs, not vactrols... interestingly, it's a vactrol that's behind the Buchla low pass gate. It's the same thing that's in opto compressors and the trem circuit of most blackface fender amps. I don't have the faintest idea how its implemented in a phaser.

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ADR famously made modules for Helios consoles, (Helio's founder Dick Swettenham was a friend and collaborator with the ADR guys, from what I can tell) but it doesn't seem that any of the formats for those consoles were exactly 40mm wide.

If we knew which consoles supported that format, hunting for deeper info might get a bit easier.

The Audities Foundation has an extensive compilation of Helios console pictures on Facebook, besides a compilation of the “Manor Mobile” Helios console. The latter has photos of a preamp’s guts and the front of a “Lo Cut Phase Filter”, which can give us an idea of the dimensions.

The Facebook page for Audities’ studio has even more. There is a folder of photos of Strawberry Studios (which includes pictures of the Helios phantom308 was talking about) and a “Studio Tour” folder that includes more of that console and a picture of his “Auto Phasor”. It is not an aesthetic match for the P200.

Oh yeah, 10cc recorded at strawberry... and later Joy Division IIRC... the manor belonged to Virgin. Every virgin studio had a custom helios. Olympic and Island also went Helios although Island went MCI once they released the first in-line desk, the JH500 series. Looking at some of these pictures you linked to, it appears that Helios reduced their channel width as channel counts crept up. I even spotted a pic with what appears to be in-line monitoring on short faders. I had no idea there was so much variety. I wanna say that Raindirk had a connection to Heliis. Just remembered that.

EDIT: scroll through the facebook strawberry fokder! Theres one with the caption "8 bus A&DR/helios version of the strawberry control room" which to me reinforces the connection between helios desks and early A&DR modules.

The strawberry helios seems to be in-line monitoring? I always think of them as split desks but I guess they made the change when the jh500 blew up. This is a ton of ancient history!

UPDATE: Raindirk is claiming that by 73 it was one if their desks at De Lane Lea? And Raindirk replaced the classic Heliis at Olympic.... hmmmmm

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UPDATE: Raindirk is claiming that by 73 it was one if their desks at De Lane Lea? And Raindirk replaced the classic Heliis at Olympic.... hmmmmm

If Raindirk is referring to the Kingsway location, then that gives an even stronger indication that McPhee acquired the Kingsway Sound Techniques A-Range, because he had De Lane Lea’s console by the time of the May 5, 1973 issue of Sounds:

Sounds, May 5, 1973, "Mac’s Home Cooking: The Groundhogs" by Jerry Gilbert

Tony started building the studio in January, the centrepiece being an eight track console which he’d procured from the De Lane Lea studios in Kingsway. […] "The eight track I have is obsolescent, which means that I have to go and stick jacks in round the back but that doesn’t matter — I mean how much more can you get from a modern machine?"

[EDIT: I think this photo of the Deep Purple Raindirk shows it in the place where the Kingsway A-Range was. Notice the window.]

Beat Instrumental chronicles how Studio Techniques was very involved in De Lane Lea’s setup and expansion. The Wembley location definitely had an A-Range desk in 1972, as did the eventual Soho location. There was also a merger with CTS, in which CTS sold off a lot of its equipment because they would be using De Lane Lea’s.

Below are some records in periodicals recording the locations, staff, equipment and construction of De Lane Lea Studios. Links marked by a “+” signify a mention of Sound Techniques or a picture of an A-Range console.

New Musical Express (NME)

Billboard

Beat Instrumental

Studio Sound

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I thought Raindirk would shed some light if only tangentially... I was looking at a broken down Symphony console and looked into their history before passing due to shipping difficulty and I remembered reading up on the history

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