tb-303 clones, why I stopped grumbling and bought Uli's TD3 even though I don't need it

so for $150 you cna get the Behringer 303 clone.... one of their many firect rip-offs of old synthesizers (some long discontinued, others already reissued by Korg/ARP). Ignoring the ethics of Uli's business I decided to bite even though I have a x0x and a bassbot. Here's why:

CONNECTIVITY

Both the bassbot and x0x have midi capabilities, with the bassbot its midi and tis pretty basic... the x0x has similar midi functionality in addition to the proprietary roland pre-mid dinsync from the original line of drum machines and synths... I have modular gear in the eurorack format as well loads of korg gear that sues the volka style Korg analog clock on a minijack not to mention a novation sequencer/synth that generates korg clock from midi clock. At half the price of a x0x or bassbot the td3 is a no-brainer because of the additional clock input, allowinf me to use a mono TS minijack in palce of a pricier midi cable (and saving a channel of output from my midi patchbay wasted on just clock for the sequencer). On top of that the thing has its DS1 circuit already built into it saving another bt of hassle unless I want to go distortion+ or Rat. But lastly the thing has CV/gate out for the sequencer allowing me to send TB303 sequences to my modular synths if I want. I get that the x0x is the original 303 clone with the classic sequencer and predates the eurorack boom, but when I got my bassbot mk1 the thing was priced at a solid $500 if I recall and I feel like cv/gate was a glaring omission given that eurorack was going strong. The frickin' bass station rack from the 90s has cv/gate i/o as well as an internal mid to cv converter! Though cheaper, the mk2 has the same omission and I wonder how cyclone hopes to compete with Uli when their connectivity is so inferior.

Unless the behringer soudns markedly inferior to my odler 303 units then they are going out the door. For what I'll make on them I can buy a fleet of behringers.

My TD3 arrives some time this week, I have every itnention of making a quick demo of tis basic, standalone 303 functions that I'll post. If Ic an find time I will try to set the sequencers and sound engines the same on all 3 of my clones and do side by side comparison although I've already found this to be a crap shoot with the bassbot and x0x as the controls and sequencers just respond a little different. The whole process is a rabbit hole. The only reward is that both sound good and rolandy. Anyway, I ould lvoe to ehar other people's thoughts on this.

Yes I was going to purchase the TD3 but opted for The Roland TB 3 Because it has a multitude of New patches as well as the square and sawtooth of the original 303 and its ease of use when programming. ALSO the TB3 uses ACB technology and side by side I couldn't tell the difference between the original 303 and the TB3 so its it's a no brainer. Thee only thing the TB3 is lacking is CV gate and Sync out. The fact is for about £160. second hand you gets loads more with the TB3 without losing out on the original 303 sound quality.

you make really good points, though a new TD3 is still solidly 2/3rd the cost of a used TB3 (maybe even half the cost, wait'll they hit the second hand market)... but no doubt you get a lot from roland for the extra money! However, look at my gear list. I don't need extra features, I don't even need another 303 clone. I have a synth for every job. I really just want a tb303 sequencer with clock and cv/gate in addition to midi. For someone else the TB3 is a major contender. For oldheads with piles of synthesizers not so much. Now its not an analog purist thing. I'm thinking of buying a roland System 1M to interact with my other modula gear and add some dgital weirdness. Its just that I don't like paying for bells and whistles I won't use....

I realy have an absurd amount of gear, and I've been selling stuff I'm not using as I buy different stuff, but the synth to human ratio in my studio is way out of whack.... and that's not including the many instruments owned by my bandmates.

Yes Jim point taken PEACE .

it chaps my ass to compliment a behringer product (again, the neutron is so kick ass).... but the td3 is a 303. I think the square sounds more right than the bass bot and the sequencer slide and accent are spot on. Got it today and enjoyed it after I put my kid to sleep. Didn't put it up against the bassot and x0x yet. But it just soudns great, no effects added. Its a little lighter than the bassbot or a real 303... also the pots feel rgeat. Not as loose as an old one but not as tight as the bassbot was when new, very easy to sweep around. Squelchy, shrieking goodness for the price of dinner and a movie for 2.

I just noticed my bassbot had cv/gate outs all along that I never used.... no clock input, although the Behringer's is finnicky being a clone and wants 24 ppq like an old roland device versus korg's 2ppq for the volca's. It'll apparently do 2ppq, but Uli doesn't recommend it. Haven't tried it yet. I'll have to test the midi clock sync first, get that sorted and the start/stop from a DAW, then think about live performance. 303 clones are such a crap shoot. none of them have all the features one would want.

You get a chanve to try changing the clock Jim?

I got it working with some extra modulates to translate

How is the TD3 treating you now that you've had it awhile?

I've been listening to a few 2020 releases with TB-303 and/or TB/TD-3/03... and so, for like the 80th time in my life, I want a 303... any further sync issues with your TD? will this thing stay in sync via MIDI, or do I have to get creative?

upgrading the studio has REALLY solved my clocking issues... previously the start stop timing could be a bit off via midi over din or usb but the timing was rock solid while sending it analog clock was pretty much impossible since all my gear uses the korg standard. Now with the new interface and the insanely fast computer the start stop timing is really tight, especially over DIN from the interface and the only issue it has is the common problem analog sequencers and arpeggiators have with clock sync over midi where it takes a bar to really sync perfectly. But the new interface is my analog clocking solution and this is how I use the td3 anymore. Right now I have 6 spare outputs set up as clock sources in my DAW. They're all DC coupled :-) I have a sampled clock pulse from an sq1 and I just sequence that at whatever time division I need. I have presets for my sends with optimized gain to hit that 2 to 5v sweetspot. So I just set up the sequence f pulses against my other music to send the td3 24 ppq with it set to analog clocksource at the factory 24ppq setting and it syncs perfectly. Want to stop the sequence? Mute the clock in that section. Need to stop the sequence mid-bar and then retrigger at the top of a new bar? During your rest just hit the stop button and then hit the start button, when the clock comes back the sequence is on the 1st note. This DAW hack also kills it for the Juno6 which advances 1 note per pulse. You can create complex rhythms with your pulses and have at it. You can be paying a 3 note up/down arp in quarters and in anther section go double or half time just by sending more or double or half the pulses.

before I worked out this hack I was actually usingthe td3 as an alternative to the sq1 to clock things, sending 24ppq to devices looking for another standard yields itnersting and unexpected patterns.

Glad to hear things have been smooth since the studio upgrade. Your praise for your MOTU interface has me looking at an M4 as my new mobile i/o box, instead of the SSL 2+. As a MIDI-obsessive, I've always been itching to give MOTU some money anyway. USB-C allows the M2/4 output something like 3.5 volts each direction for CV duties, which sounds far more adequate than what any DC coupled USB 2.0 could manage... plus the superior latency performance the M-series boxes are reported to have... which is the thing I'd probably get the most benefit from daily.

I can't recommend MOTU's current lineup highly enough. The expandability is a big selling point too. And 7v +/- is more than you can really use for most CV jobs unless you have an ms20. A word on MOTU latency. Yes it can go hella low. Inaudibly low. I can get my latency down to 2ms roundtrip... but, at higher sample rates with high track counts you might need to compromise a little. I have an incredibly fast machine but I've run into some issues here and there. It can be frustrating. Now the fix for it is to turn the buffer up a bit. I have yet to make my buffer large enough that I can hear any latency playing live overdubs monitoring through my DAW's mixbus... I still haven't needed to monitor through the direct mixer. But the wall for me is between 16 and 24 stereo tracks at 192k, and I finally got some glitchy playback when running about 60 tracks (mixed stereo and mono) at 48k a few weeks ago and had to make my buffer bigger. I probably don't need to tell you this stuff, but just a heads up that those ultra low figures aren't real world scenarios and they really require a lot of CPU and, RAM horsepower and having a modern SSD helps too.

But yeah, I have yet to monitor overdubs directly through the interfaces virtual mixer, which is insane. I just listen right from the track I'm recording on, something I've wanted to do at home for years. Its great to actually be tracking a midi part and tucking it into the mix while you're still recording. My workflow is so fast now that if I have an idea I just power up and hit it... although I find myself mostly recording bad ideas because everything's so easy.

now that you're syaing you might buy a 303 are you talking about spending the big bucks for a real one? I don't imagine they've gotten any less scarce and I doubt the 2020 shit show has dented their prices like more common vintage items.

thanks for the detailed personal experience re: latency. I am not expecting miracles. I was only referring to apples to apples situations, meaning I suspect the MOTU M4 could provide me a lower total roundtrip latency before succumbing to glitches than other comparable interfaces.

now that you're syaing you might buy a 303 are you talking about spending the big bucks for a real one? I don't imagine they've gotten any less scarce and I doubt the 2020 shit show has dented their prices like more common vintage items.

Any money I sunk into a real one would ultimately be a reasonable investment. Original 303s will be worth well in excess of $10k within next 20 years... but I think I'd get my hands on a Behringer copy first and really get a feel for it. Given the extreme variances in old electronics, I'd never buy a 303 without first going hands on and seeing if it was a particularly good one... and I'm not yet qualified to make that determination.

...or I'd have to buy like 4 or 5 at a flippable price, then only keep the one I thought was best of the litter.

Soon as those came out I wished I’d waited & gone w/ MOTU...

Dammit...

Soon as those came out I wished I’d waited & gone w/ MOTU...

Dammit...

eh, audio interfaces, powered speakers, and midi controllers are all commodity items. There will always be something superior on the market 6 months later. As soon as I get an M4, it will be reduced to relative dog meat by some sexy new budget interface.

The only reason I held off getting the SSL2+ was the pandemic... it pretty much eliminated my need to use a DAW offsite in 2020.

The only reason I held off getting the SSL2+ was the pandemic... it pretty much eliminated my need to use a DAW offsite in 2020.

you're probably going to be happier with the motu, although the SSL preamps are really great, way above their pricetag sonically, if you're not putting a bunch of microphones up and you're recording DI synths and drum machines mostof the time you really don't need them. You can get that saturation sound in the mix rather than while tracking. Itsnice to have the coloration available and if its between the SSL and a scarlet range focusrite I would go SSL, but the motu M series stuff will definitely outperform either in conversion and latency. The Sabre DACs really are superior. And the output circuitry is higher voltage, higher headroom, higher bandwidth and really takes advantage of them... motu has superior hedphone amps too. I was actually thinking of buying and M2 and selling my SSL.

there's always the newer, better thing, but I don't expect you will run into better conversion at this price point for some time...

... , but the motu M series stuff will definitely outperform either in conversion and latency. The Sabre DACs really are superior. And the output circuitry is higher voltage, higher headroom, higher bandwidth and really takes advantage of them... motu has superior hedphone amps too. I was actually thinking of buying and M2 and selling my SSL.

there's always the newer, better thing, but I don't expect you will run into better conversion at this price point for some time...

You speak, I listen. Thank you.

For the last few years, I just rough everything out with soft synths before I get to the analog domain, so for the latency perf alone, I need to go MOTU. I won't expect the converters to be on par with Apogee, AU, Prism, Antelope or RME, but the fact that you, with your years of studio experience, are happy with what MOTU is offering right now carries a lot of weight with me.

For the last few years, I just rough everything out with soft synths before I get to the analog domain, so for the latency perf alone, I need to go MOTU. I won't expect the converters to be on par with Apogee, AU, Prism, Antelope or RME, but the fact that you, with your years of studio experience, are happy with what MOTU is offering right now carries a lot of weight with me.

I was doing the rough out with softsynths thing for ages myself and lately I've been doing this freeform kinda live synth mess that's not working as well for completing work... probably going back to my old method of arranging, which is what you're doing

and okay, actually, they are the same converters apogee uses currently... I mean, it ain't prism, antelope, burl... but that's next level and I'm not sure I can hear that anyway

and okay, actually, they are the same converters apogee uses currently... I mean, it ain't prism, antelope, burl... but that's next level and I'm not sure I can hear that anyway

No #@$%? No wonder the M4 isn't in-stock anywhere.

It was the DC coupled option that I missed out on with my pick. Not a huge deal, I’ve made it work other ways but that’d def be nice

I’ve made it work other ways but that’d def be nice

I'm glad you found a workable path for your CV needs.

ya know... if the +/- 3.5v on the M4 actually does work great for CV duties with the 2 extra line outs... I'll just wish it had 14 more outs. lol.