Have your say: Diplomacy in recording.

that and ridding the world of crappy engineers/producers...

yeah, thats the extent of Jim 'producing' -- I don't feel that in pop and rock that's outside of the engineer's sphere when there was no pre-production. You have to optimize the bandwidth usage so their music can be ehard, you're not changing the aprt, just suggesting it be a an octave up or use a sound that there's more space for. In pop/rock everything is all embiggened and you need that bandwidth. You can't just turn soemthing up idnefinitely without making any other changes, maybe fix it in the mix? not the answer. Right man?

Yeah that's kind of exactly what I was getting at. I don't consider that to be production either. It's just good advice.

Good advice that they are welcome to ignore, I won't take it personally.

I'll just note that it wasn't well received and withhold those comments until their solicited.

I actually just took myball and went home after awhile. I couldn't take the amount of buttheads I ahd to deal with to keep the lights on. I think we're in the midst of a massive thread hijack here and in the complete opposite direction of what Terry is saying.

So, in coming full circle and coming back to the original post, if I submit a part and it is dramatically altered in post, to a point where it no longer represents me and has my name tied to it, I will say something to the person who has altered it, and they will be able to justify the reasoning behind why the changes were made, or they will revert the part back or delete the part and I walk from the production.

Thanks guys.

It's cool... I do totally get what you are both saying.

You deal with hired musicians in professional studio environments paying by the hour etc all the time.

My questions (as always) are directed toward the small scale guys working in less than full quality studios, not at the professional level you work with but still trying to get a level of understanding in place for the 'average Joes' out there who may be doing this for the first time and have not gone in with a succinct level of understanding in regard to frequency and bandwidth.

While that lack of knowledge will frustrate a professional, the player still needs to be able to understand why changes have been made to what they did to make it sound so very different. They have the right to approach and ask.

If I play a part, or god forgive a repeat of the example where it was MY song, and the engineer changed it on me... then I want to know why.

The background to this one: Six local bands chipped in for a compilation recording... 3 songs each, mixed and released on cassettes, each band getting an equal share of units from the production run. We all paid the same amount and it was up to us to put them on consignment in local record stores. The engineer was the uncle of one band's bass player, so all communication was coordinated through that band. When I got the proof version of the final recordings, every song by every band sounded as they did live, except ONE of our band's songs, particularly my guitar parts, had been flooded with effects in post and they sounded alien to my ears. We had been performing that song live for years and it was a song my audience knew, and this production was not an "add value", it changed the feel of the song.

So I called the band in charge, told them about this. They said he knew what he was doing. The song was not going to be changed. No consultation.

Yes, it was a long time ago for me, and water under the bridge etc etc... but my post was to state that young/ new players getting stuff recorded should be able to ask why their efforts are changed, with the people making the changes having enough understanding of both the industry and the people they are working for/ with, to take the time to explain WHY it was done.

okay, why weren't you micromanaging your part of this recording and maybe everyone elses, keeping an eye on the engiener in case he was a shithead but also learning in the process (hopefully)? If you met the engineer when you were recording I am not sure why you needed a point man in the form of the uncle. You sit down and record and you walk into the control and you don't elave til tis right and if the guy want to go hom with it unfinished you are back there with or without anyone's say so the mintue he returns to work assuming tis not a completely different project that's booked the enxt day.... but you know thats chedule and you go abck there and you put your vision out there if you care, you lsiten and learn as well. i don't even duenrstand how stuff happens when someone is ther eunless they don't care. When iw as a kid you COULD NOT GET RID OF ME. I was a nuisance, but eventually people spent so much tiem with me we were buddies ever after LOL

the one thing em and Zach didn't emntion about the nonprofessionals who are still rgeat is they just have single-mindedness and attention tod etail and they are willing to fake sick at their day job to be back at the studio keeping an eye on their music, okay? I might be voerstating it a bit, I don't know, but I seem to remember working without sleep, food whatever for so much of my youth. Would I do that now? No. But I udnerstand why I was like that and I think I eneded to be like that. I elarned a lot and later on it preserved a lot of stuff that some idiot was trying to fuck up. I stright up fired a guy on one record who worked for teh label, caused a rift between him and his boss, scrapped 2 months of work, changed studios and production teams and startedover to get in the situation where thigns would coem out the way we wanted. And every gave me their wishlsit and let me figure out how to get rid of the weak producer and go out and pick out new guys and spaces we could afford on our shoestring because Iw as te attention to detail guy.

I am rambling, no sleep alst night.... but there's a psychotic attention to detail that's alcking in your story. you got walked on because no one asked you. you weren't asked ebcause you weren't there. Whether it was a lack of itenrest, confidence, time? You deprioritized your song and it got changed by aanother part of teh team because abandoned that leadership role. And thats fine, but admit tis cllaborative. Its the difference between Bowie and Joy Division in teh studio. And Martin Hannet did great stuff with JD, but the guys will tell you that's not how they sounded live, the video footage and lvie recordings back that up and at elast Hook and maybe Barny was not into the Hannet sound. They thought they were a punk band for some time. Whereas Bowie? well, we all know about Bowie. He put together a team adn micromanaged it ebcause he had vision. Sound and Vision.

this will sound ahrsh, but I mean it nicely; with the whole story in my mind's eye I just see a guy who deproioritized his authorship until the end when he was unhappy with the collaborative result. Hey, that's life in the big city.... if you don't show up you might as well not have an opinion.

Yep. Sure. All of the above.

You got me pegged!

sarcasm noted, but it soudns to me like this story is the core of how you turned into who you are now because you weren't there when stuff was being done and when you asked for changes you got told to shut up.... before it was easy to email roughs around to epople who couldn't be there for the mix I felt that if you could not bother to attend then it was tough shit if you were unhappy. Because I used to rearrange my life to make sessions and saw lots of otehr people do it, but I also rescheduled them (or bullied people into rebooking them depending on the situation) if soemthing came up because I always felt like it was a real cop-out to say "I know I couldn't make it but you guys fucked that song up at the mix session, fix it!" I feel that way with EVERYTHING. But I have the disposition of a chainsaw. You would often rather withdraw and ebat on yourself than ruffle a few feathers.... normal behavior is in the middle.

You are a chainsaw. I withdraw beaten. normal people are between. So I am as far from you as I can be, and am weaker than all others.

Nice.

that's the kinda attitude you wanna squash... you coulda elft that at "I with draw beaten." But you added some self-deprication that's actually sincere. If that's what you beleive and tis not modesty, but really internalized its getting in your way. That feeling is literally coming out of your figners when you sit down to play, its udnermining every assertion you make in a collaboration. Don't roll over but don't take your ball and go home either. I mean, some people, like the guy who prompted this whole thread? You're not going to reason with him, but I'll bet the way you approach your criticism fuels him to butt heada with you. You pick up a lot of practical psychology in music. To me se;f-confidence in music is also a aprt of MOTIVATION. When you aren't rearranging the entire world to get your music the way you want its often due to some nagging self-doubt. We all have that but give it expression in a song, not in your demeanor and don't factor it into any decisions. If you act on your beleif you will make msitakes, but you won't make them twice. If you act on your doubts you are going to make the same msitakes over and over.

here's the long and short of it, you can't expect people to respect you if you don't respect yourself... this shit is like the movies, don't tell me, show me! If you value your work and yourself as a creative then be involved even when you're not invited. Approach me and start a conversation and put yourself out there and I am going to respect that even if it disagrees entirely with my aesthetic.

hey, I share tracks with you soemtiems thata retotally incomplete and you give meinput and I graciously say "hmmm, I am ging to try that..." send you soemthing and ask if that's what you were talking about. i also go, you can't hear it yet but that's a bad idea. I have enough faith in whats going on to say "terry's a genius" without it hurting my self-esteem. I also have enough self-esteem to say "terry is isnane' and shoot you right down.