Bluesbreaker alternatives

As I've said before I'm growing my arsenal, and I was wondering what a good cheaper alternative to the Marshall Bluesbreaker would be, I've heard the Bassbreakers are a good way to go but i feel they get a bit muddier than the Bluesbreaker.

people dig the bassbreaker but the build quality looks like shit to me... they also use EL34s and that's a JTM50, real 45s used either 6L6es or similar but creamier KT66es and were very much gainier tweed bassmans

truth be told the current production bluesbreakers don't actually sound that stellar, they are a little stiff, even the handwired reissue... I have no idea why! old marshalls and the best clones seem to have a softer sound, especially played clean (there's a smokiness to your notes but they are clear, never muddy) and they also have a 3D quality to the sound as you get a few feet from the speakers that the Marshall reissue line lacks. Maybe its the drake transformers versus the old radiospares....

the JTM45/bluesbreaker sound is all about the KT66/GZ34 output section that has a different magic than a tweed bassman or later EL34 powered plexis.... its not my thing, but its righteous when you find a good example of an old marshall or a modern clone that does the business.... that said I am REALLY REALLY partial to the Dr Z Route 66 in this camp, its like a bluebreaker only better in an undefineable way (likely the way the output tubes are run as wella s the use of an EF86 pentode in the preamp over the ubiquitous 2 channel split triode design of the bassman and jtm45)

the other component of the sound is speakers.... the real classic tone is alnico celestions over greenbacks, even in a head and 4x12 cab setup some form of alnico celeston is really the ticket t the full on juicy compression and smooth response.... there were bluesbreaker combos with greenbacks (claptons may even have ahd them, no one knows) but for my buck I want alnicos, they really do THE CLASSIC SOUND.... greenbacks of both magnet sizes are more of a superlead thing

on the cheap, the late 60s Traynor YBA1 with 6L6es and a tube rectifier is a great jtm45 type head with amazing tranformers... they do the business.... anything that has EL34s from the YBA line will be more of a later plexi sound, it needs 6L6es or 7027A power tubes and a GZ34 rectifier. They can be tough to find but can be had for about 600 to 800 USD on ebay and reverb when they turn up in good working order. Get n open backed 2x12 with some celestion golds or weber bluedogs or silverbells and you are golden for about a grand total buy in. Otherwise look at a Dr Z combo, they are stellar providing 45 tones as well as a host of other delicious sounds thanks to the more versatile preamp (I think Z makes some plexi type amps that are evne closer to the original marshall, but I gotta tell you the Rt66 is a best seller for a reason, its an amazing sounding amplifier, really fabulous and capable of a world of good late 60s brit sounds-- the rest of Z's stuff is just okay)....

pretty much every boutique jtm45 clone with good transformers costs as much as a marshall reissue, though many of them school the marshall giving real bang for buck... its just a lot of bucks you have to outlay to hear the bang! Personally I was really wowed by Germino's JTM45 model but I've not tried every clone out there. You could go Ceriatone though, they make a decent enough clone at a low price, the transformers are okay and the build quality is first rate.... you will want to replace the output transformer eventually though f yur plan is to play her at 10 all the time. If you're in the USA there's Sligo who basically builds weber kits on Ebay for folks. I played a used Sligo 45 in a store in Maryland and it wasn't bad at all, but it was the priciest version with mercury magnetics transformers and sozo caps (if you believe that there's a difference in sound between different brands of carbon film capacitors, I dunno -- but good transformers make a big difference in an amp design that's all about cranking up)....

you need to define 'cheaper' for us and yourself.... too much cheaper may not be realistic to get anything but a 2D approximation of the sound.... these weren't cheap amps in the 60s.

its all apples and apples comparison though.... a bassman RI, Bluesbreaker RI, tweed twin RI, clones, the DrZ 66 and even vintage examples all share the same DNA and get in the same ballpark, but given your comments on the fender breaker's muddiness it sounds like you are picky like me, so YMMV -- horsehoes and handgrenades tones may not cut it for you and you will find yourself chasing and chasing until you wind up with an ancient example and some boutique stuff for backup LOL I ahd so many superleads from different eras and boutique builders to boot, man. All similar yet no 2 sounding the same TO ME

I've looked at dr z and i really want one, and i wasn't planning on a new bluesbreaker either they don't sound like the originals like you said they are a tad harsher, the only reissues i feel that are up to par with their counterparts are fender's, my other option is my friend does a lot of building/modding on guitars and said if id take the risk we could try to build an amp and part it out so i can get the wattage, ohms, tubes and biases all to my liking, and with him being more knowledgeable on amps than i am its just a matter of price and whether it actually works how we plan

the fenders sound off too apart from the Clapton branded tweed twin which sounds BETTER than an original low power twin

if your friend is up to it order a metro JTM45 kit and have him make it, its a hard build though if hes never done a big amp.... there's a lot of lead dress issues a modder won't have dealt with in his modding... evnen a guy who has bilt champs and such might fuck it up because its way more susceptible to oscilations and noise than a small amp.... I've owned legit vintage marshalls thata cted as radio antennas and broadcast FM rock stations in the right building at certain angles (which is why I toured with a reissue plexi, the lead dress was exemplary and with a little tweaking it owned on my old superleads in the end)

but if he can build a complex amp, the ebst kit is universally accepted to be the metro kit and both the martran and mercury magnetics radiospares output transformer provide different shades of vintage transformer saturation.... its funny, a well made jtm45 is like a tighter and punchier ac30, the speakers have so much influence on an amp I have to reiterate that you need celestion alnicos or great clones like the webers and taydens (for a vox I prefer blue reissues, but in a marshall the cloners get there.... even eminence's red fang rocks out the right way with a 45) for THE sound

EDIT:

personally I am all about the non-marshall 50 waters lately (okay, marshall calls the jtm45 a 30 watter, but its way louder than an ac30 with a set of high efficiency alnicos)... I love my old traynor PA head which is very Orange/Matampish and delivers marshall crunch, hiwatt clarity and Orange HEFT and I just bought a Selmer treble and bass from '64ish I have high hopes for having liked all the different treble and bass selmers I've ever tried.... everyone has the marshall sound, but other british, Canadian and european manufacturers have made other shades of the 50 watt sound that just didn't win the war for reasons that have nothing to do with tone. So never discount a totally different EL34 variant with vintage sopology, they can totally school a marshall for tones outside the marshall's narrow comfort zone, for real.... and Iw as once a vintage marshall accumulator, had tone of them made between 1969 and 1990

ill definitely look into it, if the moneys there this would be both of ours first amp build. i know he's tweaked amps but never actually done more than taking a fender deluxe and bypassing the reverb/trem into the normal channel. if its too big of a risk i may see if he wants to start with something like a champ or smaller amp and work our way to something bigger such as a bluesbreaker clone

a jtm45 is not a 1st build, no way! I edited my LAST post

yea ill heed your advice and go with a small build if we go that way i did a bit of research and it looks well beyond both of ours abilities, as of rn i don't need the amp I'm just looking for more flavor so this gives me something to look forward to

there's lots of great stuff out there in every decade, don't be snobby about brand or era... so many great amps.... and then of course there's the AC30 which is head and shoulders above, well, everything!

amp collecting is fun IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT.... I can and I am a nut for buying AND trading my amps, I own 3 different ac30s and a matchless right now as well as two oddball but collectible 50 watt el34 amps and a tweed Pro.... its great.... IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT! if you have a wife and kids on a musician's income, drop it unless you are making MAD money at a long term gig, its an expnsive hobby and you can take ahit if your expensive amps go out of style right when you wanna sell. The rule is save money and buy during economic downturns and ell during upswings so you make money on each trade. It can be tough though! I broke even on the jimmy page supro (1624, great little studio amp, not for me though) and some other wicked combos because I had to sell before the market was ready for me fully due to family issues. I sustained the lack of profit and moved on, but that was ME. Building amps is STILL EXPENSIVE and the resale is shit. Careful, tread lightly if you are not flush with cash at all times!

your current stable contains 3 of the worst, stiffest, least expressive reissues,,,, look at unloadingthem for max profit and focusing in on an amp that is equally tuneful and YOU

i wish i could amp collect, I just want a couple versatile amps that have unique tones, ideally i want a vintage bluesbreaker, an old ac30, and collection wise id love a Milkman and a Tone King Metropolitan and all of these along with the best/most versatile amp imo the fender deluxe

vintage BBs and ACs are pretty much unattainable unless you're a Doctor these days, the market went crazy after I got my 60s vox... I was pissy paying more than a grand for an old amp at the time, little did I suspect where the prices were going... thanks Ebay

but seriously, collecting stuff is a disease that eats up too much of my time, floor space and money and I need to stop, just play and enjoy! go get yourself a beat up silverface deluxe and be done with it... they are great amps that sound every bit as good as blackface, command less money and were made in such large quantities that there's a silverface deluxe for every player wh0 wants one.... you already have a lot of pretty valuable stuff, its just not the best sounding stuff. If I were you I would be looking to flip several of those reissues into something boutique or vintage and maybe an extra guitar if there's money left over! Or wait, I may have been looking at your WANT IT list and not your HAVE IT list. I am an idiot.

I can never bring myself to try the tone king stuff at the amp show or in the fancy man stores. Something about the name... http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/2/20/Plow_king_shoots_mr_plow.png/revision/latest?cb=20160318042618

but I have been really tempted to try his JTM45 styled amp, the regal I wanna say? The demoes I've heard of her had a certain somethin' going on that's got me interested, but god knows what the tone is in person. YouTube clips are so deceptive.

oh, hey, have you looked at Avatar's marshall styled amps? Yeah, Avatar, the cabinet maker. People seem to really like these amps and the asking prices are pretty reasonable. I think they do a JTM45 and 2 different riffs on the 18 watt.

If you want a Bluesbreaker in a box, may I interest in the Snouse Black Box?

a 50w plexi marshall isn't the same as a bluesbreaker, man.... so I'm sure that your DSL will get 75-80% of the way to plexi or (more likely) metalface 50 land on the low gain channel, hwver I doubt an SS rectified head with EL34s derived from the JCM800 is going to cop a JTM45 convincingly. Apples and apples, but the OP seems more discerning than that.

also, there's a feel thing here.... a good old basic design with a tube rectifier just plays different than a modern channel switcher even if you set them to sound similar

but $425 for any passable 50 watter is a good deal these days