Dave Friedman sounds off about amps and tonewood, what do YOU think?

Friedman interview

That 3-5 lbs of alder, ash, mahogany, etc is a part of your tone. As is the wood of your fretboard, the size and thickness of your neck, etc, etc.

You can marginalize their contributions with a cranked MT-2, but that doesn't mean they stop contributing altogether.

Without stirring up a wood debate I definitely agree with him here on amplifier/guitar interaction. The amp is subbing in for a large acoustic chamber.

Not having owned a guitar amp since the 90s, I'm ignorant as to what he means by new amps with "no volume".

Is he talking about an amp in which the gain control is the only means to control output volume? huh?

He's referring less to an amp's inherent output sound pressure than to each amp's sweet spot where the whole system from strings to pickup to amplifier to speakers and hopefully the room interact musically versus the tendency these days to either crank up the gain knob and dial down the master very low, below where the tubes and speakers 'wake up' or to so something similar with gain pedals on a non master volume amp like a deluxe reverb dialed down until its stiff to play. I'm very aware of what he's talking about. Its not so much about playing really loud but as loud as you have to in order to get the whole instrument to resonate with your playing and the instrument is everything from strings to speaker. You can maintain much better clarity with the right powered amp and appropriate speaker(s) and enclosure for your environment.

Is this the video he's referencing that he says he disagrees with?

I suspect so, my friend. By the way, I posted a couple new threads in mod squad on behalf if aggrieved users while I was slacking off work if you would be good enough to take a look.

Is this the video he's referencing that he says he disagrees with?

I too assumed he meant this video... a favorite of the "tone woods don't matter for electric guitars" crowd.

The various Telecasters he makes in this video sound as different from each other as I would expect. People who listen to this video and think all 4 creations sound exactly the same... well, they are (not) hearing the thing they (don't) want to hear.

Pretty much any amazing on-record guitar or bass performance could have been performed on a way cheaper and supposedly-crappier instrument made of some supposedly undesirable material, and so long as the setup was good and the player, strings and all other factors were the same, that part is likely still gonna work, and the recording would still be great, maybe even identical in every sonic detail, after everything is mixed.

BUT if I pick up 2 identical guitars in a shop, and one feels like it resonates a bit more against my body as I play it, that matters, even if most people couldn't tell which guitar was which when recorded.

If one instrument sounds just a tiny bit less shrill when the tone is wide open, or just a bit more articulate with the tone all the way off, that matters.

If one instrument has slightly darker or brighter mids than another, that matters.

If one instrument has a slightly sharper/more pronounced attack transient, that matters.

These things might not be that noticeable in the recording itself, but added up over the hours, days, weeks and years you'll spend practicing and performing on that instrument, those little 5% differences will conspire to lead you in different directions... you'll practice a bit more, or you'll write a part that really shows off where that instrument shines, or you'll avoid playing things that you don't feel that instrument really lends itself to.

Maybe the guitar that sounds best to you acoustically, before it's plugged in, is made of poplar and only costs $300. Totally possible, and great when that happens. But seeking out an instrument made from an especially-resonant piece of light alder, ash, or similar is not a pointless pursuit.

We're talking about musical instruments, not kitchen appliances. How the instrument feels in your hands and in your lap, and all those final %s of a % differences and variations matter. Different details matter to different musicians, but none of them can be universally dismissed, nor conclusively "myth-busted" in the way that video seems to imply to some people.

IRL, if you went to some meetup and Ted Greene was arguing with Dimebag Darrell (RIP, dudes) about the importance of tone wood, you'd be like "ha, that makes sense, these two people have VERY different tastes, goals, and outlooks. I can see why tone wood is more important to one person, and less to the other person."... but for some reason, on the internet, that kind of context never seems to get considered, and instead we just read disembodied comments and think that some universal truth is at stake that we must fight for...

..lol...

I wouldn't mind tonewood kitchen appliances. You could make some really high class industrial record with them.

I wouldn't mind tonewood kitchen appliances. You could make some really high class industrial record with them.

Ha!

I need some tone scrap metal...

From my experience, at least for an electric guitar/bass, the build (body shape, solid/hollow, etc.), pickups, and the choice of strings will have a bigger impact on your sound than the tonewood. Perhaps there is a slight difference in sustain, if anything, but even then I think that is more down to the pickups and the bridge materials (and nut for open strings).

Regarding amps, true that there is an interaction between guitar and amp (as well as whatever pedals you have in between), but I think the tonewood's effect on that is practically negligible.

Of course, for acoustic guitars as we know, the tonewood does make a huge difference, I'm definitely more into mahogany myself!

You're entitled to your opinion but I question what its based on.

EDIT: if you've never opened an old superlead all the way up in a big venue and felt your guitar vibrate in sympathy with every note you're missing out...

We're talking about musical instruments, not kitchen appliances. How the instrument feels in your hands and in your lap, and all those final %s of a % differences and variations matter. Different details matter to different musicians, but none of them can be universally dismissed, nor conclusively "myth-busted" in the way that video seems to imply to some people.

Now I'm going to speak. The video isn't even rock n roll science. If tonewood is a myth then I want that guy to try out a pebblebrook custom tele made from 200 year old barn pine vs a typical slab of kiln dried swamp ash or alder with the same bridge assembly, pickups (underwound for flatter response), pots (1mega for minimal loading) and tone cap (or maybe we skip the controls and run the pickup straight to a DI box known to be very flat from 50hz). Hell, we could do the experiment with the same neck, swapping on and off. It's an extreme example that would generate a measurable result and therefore an objective answer. Skip the listeningtest, let's record through 32bit sabre converters at 192k and break out the spectral processing apps. No need to actually do it since I know how it would turn out when we ran those DI recordings just strumming the open strings through some FFT analysis. Frequency specific amplitude data will tell a tale beyond what you'll get from a basic spectrum analyzer like included in fabfilter. But everyone is entitled to an opinion. I didn't believe in magic capacitors until I finally saw some data on certain dielectric materials subjected to the correct tests to prove me wrong... but I still don't believe in magic wire beyond what you can expect based on capacitance specs lol... and the jury us out on opamp rolling... but sometimes it turns out that where there's smoke there's fire and that you need to design the right tests to get results that answer the question... and I don't mean subjective listening tests... but you can't purposely create test conditions that will spit back only data that is likely to support your conclusion and say "case closed," in the real world. But you sure as hell can on YouTube. Personally I find the argument tedious because none of these hills are worth dying on.

Maybe I'm dead wrong but regardless, that video isn't proving anything. I don't intend to prove my suspicions because I don't see why it has to be an argument. If tonewood doesn't matter to you then there's more endangered Honduran mahogany for me. You enjoy the basswood, it's all yours. If vintage amps are overrated, that's great, I'm not competing with you in an increasingly frenzied gear market over a shrinking pool of amplifiers when I want something different. In the words of my late wife, "go ahead and do you." Obviously I'm not speaking to YOU specifically, its authorial. Aimed at the basements experts who've never even played a packed theater.

IRL, if you went to some meetup and Ted Greene was arguing with Dimebag Darrell (RIP, dudes) about the importance of tone wood, you'd be like "ha, that makes sense, these two people have VERY different tastes, goals, and outlooks. I can see why tone wood is more important to one person, and less to the other person."... but for some reason, on the internet, that kind of context never seems to get considered, and instead we just read disembodied comments and think that some universal truth is at stake that we must fight for...

I just caught this... I can't picture dimebag caring to argue the point if the meetup had an open bar. Even though I started this thread, I think I'll be at the bar as well.

Now I'm going to speak. [...] Obviously I'm not speaking to YOU specifically, its authorial. Aimed at the basements experts who've never even played a packed theater.

I know you're not speaking to me personally, as I agree with you -- despite never having never played a guitar at concert volume in a theater.

I hate basswood too, but mostly for the softness. I bought a brand new MIJ/CIJ Strat in the early 90s and some of the pick guard screws could barely keep hold of the body after the first pick guard removal. Never again.

... I can't picture dimebag caring to argue the point if the meetup had an open bar. Even though I started this thread, I think I'll be at the bar as well.

I have a hard time imagining most died-in-wool metal guitarists caring about tone wood -- I'd image your pickups, amp & FX are gonna be so overpowering in that context that most would be embarrassed to get caught giving a @#$%.

I have a hard time imagining most died-in-wool metal guitarists caring about tone wood -- I'd image your pickups, amp & FX are gonna be so overpowering in that context that most would be embarrassed to get caught giving a @#$%.

There's also the wang bar factor. All floyd rose style locking vibratos powerfully decouple the strings from the body. In fact all vibrato systems decouple to some extent.

Basswood was fine for Jeff Beck who got free strats all year. But I don't.

Edit: I don't really object to folks saying that wood doesn't matter to them or that they think the impact of wood is mostly marketing hype... I do take exception to folks who perform pseudo scientific experiments designed to produce results that prove them right in order to win a war most of us aren't fighting because we're actually making music. If you need to convince gullible kids that folks like me have been suckered in order to validate your miserly attitude towards your tools, then I call sour grapes... I would never try to prove that Carol Shelby made shitty cars just because I'm too practical to own one and I admit I would like to cruise around in a cobra, but irs too expensive, isn't practical as a dad or musician... and an old sports car needs to be babied in a way i can't commit to. It doesn't automatically follow that there's nothing to enjoy from that car; that its reputation is founded upon lies.

I have a hard time imagining most died-in-wool metal guitarists caring about tone wood -- I'd image your pickups, amp & FX are gonna be so overpowering in that context that most would be embarrassed to get caught giving a @#$%.

There's also the wang bar factor. All floyd rose style locking vibratos powerfully decouple the strings from the body. In fact all vibrato systems decouple to some extent.

I know you can still buy new guitars with a full Floyd Rose system as standard, but seeing a Floyd Rose nut always brings me back to the 80s and 90s, for some reason. It's like a mullet for your Strat.

Basswood was fine for Jeff Beck who got free strats all year. But I don't.

Interesting, and surprising, I had no idea.

He was, IMHO, a musician in complete and delicate control of every dimension of his performance.

... so his choice to play basswood is perhaps the ultimate counter to anyone who, like us, is no longer willing to accept basswood into their hearts.

I'm sure he could get comped instruments from anyone he wanted, but he apparently clung to his basswood #1 & #2 Strats for a good long stretch:

http://www.woodytone.com/2011/05/10/becks-strat-is-not-like-his-sig-model/

Regardless, I don't care how it sounds or how light it is, one baby-soft basswood guitar was enough for me. I'm scarred.

Years back, a buddy of mine sent his late-90s CIJ J Mascis Jazzmaster to MJT for 2 reasons:

1. That model was (as I'm sure you recall) finished in a metal-flake purple sparkle. "Way too Spacehog...", he lamented.

2. "The neck is perfect, but the body is a s$%@-hunk of basswood."

He sold off the body and sent the neck and some new Fender decals to MJT. MJT fired up their banned-in-California lacquer sprayers and painted him a new body (presumably made of something more substantial) in Firemist Gold, and they re-painted and re-decal-ed the headstock to match.

Instead of going through all that trouble, he could have sold that long-discontinued guitar and easily bought an AVRI Jazzmaster for what that thing was worth at the time, but he didn't want to part with the apparently perfect (for him) neck.

I forget whether he had them use Ash or Alder, but he was very happy with the change in tone the new body introduced.

I know this story has absolutely nothing to do with empirical evidence, it's one secondhand anecdote about a subjective opinion -- I just think it was a baller move on my buddy's part, lol. It's a story that still makes me happy.

I know you can still buy new guitars with a full Floyd Rose system as standard, but seeing a Floyd Rose nut always brings me back to the 80s and 90s, for some reason. It's like a mullet for your Strat.

What about a merkin for my strat?

Years back, a buddy of mine sent his late-90s CIJ J Mascis Jazzmaster to MJT for 2 reasons:

1. That model was (as I'm sure you recall) finished in a metal-flake purple sparkle. "Way too... Spacehog.", he lamented.

I love spacehog! The singer/bassist was married to Liv fucking Tyler. . . If that's not an endorsement of sparkly instruments then I dunno what is!

1. "The neck is perfect, but the body is a s$%@-hunk of basswood."

That squire has an amazing neck profile... if I liked jazz masters I would buy one.

I forget whether he had them use Ash or Alder, but he was very happy with the change in tone the new body introduced.

As long as it wasn't poplar. Worst sounding guitar wood ever. EVER... oh wait, I'm deluding myself and all solid body guitar bodies sound the same... so how come mexican fender standards oblf the 90s sounded like ass even with upgrade hardware and electronics?

I just think it was a baller move on my buddy's part, lol. It's a story makes me happy.

Your friend is a badass and a man after my own heart. I swear by Jimmy Vaughn and Robert Cray MIM strats. Best bang for buck for me stock. I like the necks, nice alder bodies, the stock hardware is usa stuff and they even have tolerable pickups. I might order a new body for the road warrior strat I bought when I was 21, it's a Jimmy Vaughn with the best soft v of any I've played but man I abused her lol. The body us mangled and I'm not as into Olympic white as I once was. She deserves a nice, new lake placid blue lacquer 1 piece alder body ir something...

What about a merkin fir my strat?

You'd have to ask Steve Vai , I'm sure he has some ideas.

I love spacehog! The singer/bassist wss married to Liv fucking Tyler. . . If that's not an endorsement if sparkly instruments then I dunno what is!

Dick Dale was the guy who made me want a guitar painted like a carny bumper car at the county fair. That Dick Dale finish still slays, I don't care what anyone else says.

Your friend is a badass and a man after my own heart.

Yeah, you two would get on pretty well, I suspect.

I swear by Jimmy Vaughn and Robert Cray MIM strats. Best bang for buck for me stock.

Those 2 have always gotten second looks from me. I love the vintage white-on-white thing they do on the newer JVs, and I remember lusting after a gray Robert Cray hardtail waaaayyyy back in the day.

LPB, eh? I had MJT do an alder strat body for me in a creamy vintage white like 10 years ago (like I said, I like the white-on-white thing). By the time it arrived, the urge to get back into guitar had faded, and life was especially nuts at the time, so it sits in a drawer to this day, unused... but I love to get it out now and then and smell it, and feel that wonderfully thin finish, and feel the whole thing resonate with the slightest tap. I can't speak to their quality of work today, but 10 years ago, they were killing it.

Hey! It's good to have another voice in this thread. Thanks for chiming in. :)

From my experience, at least for an electric guitar/bass, the build (body shape, solid/hollow, etc.), pickups, and the choice of strings will have a bigger impact on your sound than the tonewood.

For the most part, that tracks to my own, admittedly-limited, experience.

Regarding amps, true that there is an interaction between guitar and amp (as well as whatever pedals you have in between), but I think the tonewood's effect on that is practically negligible.

Interesting. Have you had opportunities to play theater-sized venues @ concert volume, per Jim's earlier question?

Per your profile, are you primarily playing Psychedelic & Shoegaze these days?

Of course, for acoustic guitars as we know, the tonewood does make a huge difference, I'm definitely more into mahogany myself!

That's a good-looking mahogany Cort you've got there!