What gives an amp it's character?

When you watch online reviews or when you are looking for a new amp, what is it about the sound that you want? Is it electronics, or the cabinet and speakers? Or is it a marriage of all three that make an amp be that amp?

For example, Fender Deluxe Reverb are considered a great pedal platform, while an AC30 may not be the wisest choice for pedals, working more with natural overtones. But would dropping the Fender through the speakers and cab of the Vox, or the Vox through a Marshall 4x12 change the relationships?

What governs this?

Are we listening to the way the electronics react to pedals, or is it more a case of how the speakers present the sound we are driving?

I know changing speakers changes voicing, but could they impact the relationship of your sound to the point of how the overall presentation (to the audience/ recorded product) deals with pedals?

The answer seems obvious. Amp is amp. Speakers are speakers... but is that it? endgame?

depends on the amp circuit... a vox is very speaker sensitive and the THE VOX SOUND is about alnico speakers to me, with ceramics it can be marshally or tweed fender (though a mix is great).... voxes with all alnico setups tend to be less pedal friendly through the top boost channel (which most people use)

but fenders are fenders thru anything

but on the pedal tip it has more to do with the preamp topology.... the blackface fender topology is a gain stage with volume and tone controls and then another gain stage whacked right into the phase inverter while big tweed, voxes and marshall are a gainstage followed by a volume, then a mixer stage for the dual channels (not in a vox, just an extra stage ina top boost with a dropping resistor to get some hwadroom), a cathode follower to buffer the tone controls, the tone stack, then the phase inverter... a vintage orange is 2 gains tages, tone stack, phase inverter driver stage and then the concertina inverter that's only 1 triode versus the modern standard of the long tailed pair with 2 self balancing triodes in parallel and some of its own gain.... a hiwatt is odder still going with 2 stages, tone stack, then a cathode follower buffer or voltage reference triode (depending on year) into the PI....

and between every stage the designer places coupling caps that control bass response by their size, maybe some bright caps on a volume control shunting away bass at lower volumes AND possibly RC networks that shape the entire sound between gain stages... there's a lot to this, Terry

then there's the pedals themselves, what impedance are they sending the amp's nominal 1meg load? and is the rest of the amp voiced in a way to tolerate a high fixed source impedance while maintaining performance? does it sound stiff with an ultra low impedance from 80s or later designs? Every component interaction effects the interaction between guitar and amp and therefore effects interactions between pedals and the amp

trying to boil it all down is nigh impossible as there are hundreds of components in some amps all lending to the sound and response

I use my ears first and worry about the numbers later.

Cool. Thanks. Makes a lot of sense.

I run my Marshall (JCM800) through a custom 4 x12 cab with three Fenders and an EV.

It has gotten a lot of comments over the years from many who like the sound I get and want to buy it from me.

I have been looking recently into a downsize, but I do love this sound. Thought process led down the path of toying with amp and speaker combos. Was not sure how much impact the change in speakers REALLY has.

is it a 2203? 100 watts?

yep. Far too loud to appreciate in home environment.

you could get a 2x12 with some EV12Ls or something like them and then take the amp to tech and have him mod it for a bias switch to run JJ 6V6es (which tolerate EL34 plate voltages but output half the wattage or less in a pair but youwill have to run at 1/2 impedance because of some electrical stuff with 6V6es I won't bother to explain)....

this way you get the low watt version and loud version in one box and assuming you are using matched, fresh tubes from a consistent supplier that tests them and grades them precisely (tubestore etc) you can get versy similar specs from set to set and use the switch to go between types like on a mesa Nomad.... you wil of course devalue a somewhat valuable amp, but it will make it useable, particularly if you pull 2 6V6es in 6V6 use and halve the impedance again (if possible) to get 1/4 of the EL34 wattage which will be a little better than half operating pwoer through similarly efficient speakers

Awesome. Appreciate the advice.. as always. I will hit up my tech when I get a bit of coin.

reread my post, I added to it

you wil of course devalue a somewhat valuable amp,

Now there's the real trick isn't it.

you can also try installing THD yellowjackets effectively cathode baising the amp with EL84s, same wattage cirve here as with 6V6, different sound.... imagine it being Voxed up a smidge

So just dropping to a 2x12 and switching impedance wont serve any real difference? She is a great amp... don't want to mod her.

Maybe I just buy a few more amps.... over the next few years

with your taste for the 800 I recommend an 80s Marshall Studio 15, but they are thin on the ground and getting pricey.... I sold mine for a cool grand before shipping. There are a lot of boutiques you would like but again we are talking high prices even used.

have you tried a 2x12 or 1x12 with 100 watts handling, pulling 2 tubes (outer or inner pair) and reducing impedance by 1/2 to account for internal impedance changes? a 1x12 with a lower efficiency speaker but high handling will cut volume even before you pull 2 tubes and reduce impedance to go to 50 watts

also, an ac30 with blues will be negligibly quieter than what you have run clean.... efficient speakers with extra perceived loudness due to the cutting midrange... all my voxes peel the paint off the walls, they don't liquefy kittens like a cranked marshall, but in practice at home the volume difference is little and both a 30 watt vox and 100 watt marshall in the zone will summon the authorities

an ac15 is still pretty loud but is getting within the realms of neighbor tolerance if you don't gun her to overload the poweramp

I used to play the Marshall about 4 1/2 master live with only the slightest hint, like 1 1/2 - 2 pre amp in 5000 seater venues and the sound guy sometimes ran me outside the mix... against a fully mic'ed kit. She knows how to be loud. The point where volume becomes audible (1/2 - 1) is considered too loud for my neighbourhood at most times.

so you use the amp fairly clean, hi gain input with the gain dialed back?

she is designed to be loud, its a stadium amp, man

I've owned many Marshalls, superleads, 800s, 900s, they are loud, its what they do stock. even the Studio15 and the 18 and 20 watters are loud amps in their range. God I think I've owned 20 marshlls or very similar ampslike laneys, top hat emplaxadors, THDs etc

you can't enjoy them at home stock, eventhe 50 waters.... in order to use my Selmer and Traynor at home I have to clear it with my neighbors (and I am running em thru a low efficiency 2x12 to goose down the level at the speakers). I tend to play my reissue AC30 because its tolerable in 1/2 power mode.

Yep. This gives me a beautiful shattery breakup through the Fender speakers. Like rattling a tray of broken glass across the speaker grill.

That is why I colour with pedals... (or discolour). I get a wide range of sounds out of it, which is probably what confuses people when they see my rig then hear my rig. It looks like they are in for a wall of noise, which I can definitely stomp in, but there is light and shade... which I love.

its funny, the 800 is known for gain up past 5, master at above 5 hard rock, but having owned a 2204 for ages I agree with you, it can do so much more, especially when you get some speaker dirt going

I used to enjoy mine with a strat neck pickup with the master almost wide open, low gain settings (3ish) and the bass and mids cranked, no treble low presence.... glassy and dirty but clean when backed off.... the 800 is just one of the all time great amps, but so loud! I could shatter windows with my strat setup and mine was a 50

maybe you should just get something else though, other things do that kinda sound, you are not using the 800 in a uniquely 800 way actually

you sem to be in a tweed fender realm.... maybe a super, pro or bandmaster? I love my pro

It seems almost silly I know. Like having a muscle car for groceries shopping, or a trophy wife for her cooking.

But the honest reality is, The Jazz Chorus covers my sweet cleans, the 2203 just sets me up for the next level.

Nobody thinks of a 2203 as a clean amp, it never really will be, but given just the slightest hint of colour (probably with this speaker combo too) this amp has a sound that makes people listen.

We supported the Buzzcocks and their guitarist/ vocalist approached me during soundcheck and said "OK, what is she?" we talked for a bit and he played her a bit, then asked me if he could use her that night, and gave me his Tele as a backup. Try as I might, slamming my guitar as hard as I could, my strings stayed solid that set and I couldn't justify picking up that Tele just because it was there.

and I guess this swings back to the OP. Maybe a Fender is what I want, for the sound the speakers are delivering, because I am not using the amp to get the amp sound...? maybe?

there's different fenders.... marshalls are based on big tweeds, specifically the bassman, the 800s are a tweaked bassman with cascaded gain stages, but for lower volume work the pro, super and bandmaster are sweeter to me... think "Who's Next" tones

they are essentially a bassman preamp with a different phase inverter and a slightly weaker implementation of the power tubes for about 30 watts... much different than blonde or blackface amps... in fact far removed as only a Princeton in blonde and black uses the same phase inverter scheme (that encourages edge of breakup grit) as the mid sized tweeds and they don't have the cathode follower preamp scheme