Opinions on Mackie Onyx mixers ?

Im considering the Onyx12 model for my first home studio mixer and was curious if there were any Onyx users here that can give their thoughts / opinions ?

Id also be curious to know how to stacks up against Tascam Model 12 and / or MTK 12 ?

OK, longtime Onyx 1640i owner here... but first I have some questions:

1. I'm looking at your EB, and you've got a ton of cool synths... what are you currently using to hear 3 or 4 of these machines together at the same time? Both of your interfaces are only 2 x 2, so I'm curious.

2. What's your primary motivation for wanting an analog mixer, instead of, for example, a dedicated 8 or 16 input audio interface? I know all the mixers you mentioned also double as audio interfaces, but you could put that same money into an interface purely dedicated to A/D conversion, and come away with better quality recordings... but there are a ton of good reasons why you might want the option to NOT involve a computer 100% of the time. Just curious where you're coming from on this front.

3. Given the number of synths you already have, why aren't you looking at something with more channels, like an Onyx24?

4. Where is @jimmarch1 hiding? This is totally a Jim topic.

I got a little busy.

Totally serviceable basic mixer, best eq of any mackie. Which means it's actually usable! Best mackie preamps too. Think allen and heath or 90s soundcraft rather than Crest whereas an older 8 bus or cr series are like cheaper crests to me. Usual solid mackie headroom but nothing worth hearing when pushed... the bigger you go the more comprehensive the feature set. They're all still woefully inadequate to actually mix a record with a full rock band or a lot if synths and drum machines in my opinion.

If you need to mix some signals and eq gently you could do worse. Which is a little sad really, but oh so true. Better options in a small rackable format would be the a&h mix wizard or crest xrm depending on if you like a mildly British color or no color at all. Before investing in an onyx make sure it's a great deal. If you can get like a mix wizard, zed, a pre-peavy crest, older soundcraft delta that's been serviced? Forget the onyx and get one of those.

I've not used the new tascams but they definitely offer better preamps on paper and if the eq is at all based on their 70s and 80s desks itll murder the mackie there too. It probably has a better power supply, although onvoard psu is only gonna be so good.

ADDITIONALLY

I also recommend the motu avb interfaces for a great mixer free solution to tracking multiple synths and such like you have... you can be multi tracking everything with a solid enough dsp based monitor mix going via its spiffy onboarding facilities... I love my mid format analog desks but i rarely bother recording through them. Why mix live like that? I have synths to tweak, right? I do have the option of doing an OTB mix later though.

I got a little busy.

Busy is good.

Being missed is also good, and your presence was definitely missed. That's in no way a complaint, just trying to show my appreciation for all that you bring to the table.

Update:

Regarding Mackie mixers, and all new mixers that compete against Mackie's various price points, I think it's fair to say that you should judge them by the standards you'd judge a toaster from the likes of Black & Decker or Cuisinart:

• A) Will it burn my toast or not?
• B) Will it keep making toast, without burning it, for several years?

In other words, Mackie makes mixers that are more appliance than fine instrument. Anyone that wants to ship a mixer in the same price category, regardless of brand name, is going to be in more or less the same boat.

But for many of us, that's all we need. If you expect a mixer at these price points to provide any special magic/coloration to your music, you will likely be disappointed. If you're dreaming about EQ that sounds better than what a good DAW plugin can provide, or you want to overdrive a channel for magical late-80s acid house grunge, don't get your hopes up. And to one of Jim's many good points, no mixer in this range is likely to be your go-to for out-of-the-box mixing of tracks you've already delivered to your DAW.

When I got my 1640i, I just needed something that could let me hear my synths and drum machines together without my computer being on. I was deciding between the 4-bus Allen & Heath Zed and the 4-bus Mackie options, and I went Mackie for 2 reasons:

1) The audio interface portion of Mackie's product did NOT require drivers on Mac... which means it would be more or less future proof. 7 years later, it's long since discontinued, but I'm still using it everyday, firewire into 2 (TWO!) different Apple adapters and it still performs the tasks I need. It'll develop some pops and clicks now and again, but I restart the beast and it behaves again. That's more longevity than anyone can/should expect from an audio interface.

2) John MacLean (of The Juan Maclean... yeah, this was loooong ago) has a pretty good handle on what he wants from analog gear, and he had this recurring gripe in interviews about how the British 4-bus mixer/interface combo he was using had quit on him after a short while, and the company in question did not stand behind the product and did not help him in any way (I'm not going to mention brand name, because I can't find the quote, and I I'm not 100% sure it's the brand I recall)... SO, he replaced it with a Mackie 1640, and on multiple occasions he commented how the Mackie (and I'm paraphrasing) "doesn't sound like anything at all" or "It's pretty neutral sounding, and the best I can say about it is that it doesn't sound bad." Kind of backhanded compliments, at best, suggesting his previous small-format mixer had a more pleasing coloration than the Mackie. And I was like "ok, well, I need all these features, I need long-term reliability, and I can live with a mixer that doesn't add magic fairy dust, but is still just decent enough for a veteran outboard-obsessive like this"... and also, I had someone offering me a VERY steep GC family discount for their final week of employment there... so I just had to go for it. :)

My 2 biggest gripes with this previous-gen Onyx are:

• 1) all the usable gain in the mic pres is in the final quarter of the pot... and I'm not exaggerating. Even with a Cloudlifter, you'll be teetering on the edge of the range to use an SM7B at spoken-word volumes. It's a really shocking behavior for any Mackie, let alone their range-topping hybrid mixer. I'm glad to hear, from Jim, and from a review I just read, that the new Onyxes apparently don't have this issue.

• 2) Mackie tends to squeeze in more routing/config options than their competitors, but at the cost of basic usability. I STILL have to consult the manual, 7 years in, because a lot of the layout (on this model, at least) just isn't something I can fully commit to memory and/or intuit. Never had that issue with other mixers, just this one.

To Jim's points, if you need a signal-combining appliance that is reliable, but devoid of any of the magical sound-enhancers analog gear is often associated with, Mackie has historically proven themselves on these fronts... and my own first hand experience held true to that reputation.

Thanks man.

To your point about the preamps? I have an older one and they work better with a hot, modern condenser mic than anything else.... the subtle gain sweep in the first half of the pots is fine for like an audio technica 20 or 40 series or some 81s and if youhavelike a 57 on a snare or guitar cab with high spl whacking it then really the pot taper makes more sense. It's designed for something really specific. Home recording bands and project studios were their primary market. Should it be a smoother taper? Yeah. But i think they just went for pots that would cover what they assumed their average end user would want. A lot of guitar amp volumes have that exaggerated audio tape on their gain knob too... I think there were a lot of off spec pots out there going for cheap in those days. Tolerances are way tighter now.

Regarding Mackie mixers, and all new mixers that compete against Mackie's various price points, I think it's fair to say that you should judge them by the standards you'd judge a toaster from the likes of Black & Decker or Cuisinart

Or should you look at a toaster oven?

Regarding Mackie mixers, and all new mixers that compete against Mackie's various price points, I think it's fair to say that you should judge them by the standards you'd judge a toaster from the likes of Black & Decker or Cuisinart

Or should you look at a toaster oven?

Ha! That was a suspicious metaphor, wasn't it? Busted. Non-metaphorically, I had a few friends that wanted me to go toaster oven, but I went with a Cuisinart that has extra long "artisnial" slots, for my precious sourdough, and I've been really happy with my toasting output.

Thanks man.

To your point about the preamps? I have an older one and they work better with a hot, modern condenser mic than anything else.... the subtle gain sweep in the first half of the pots is fine for like an audio technica 20 or 40 series or some 81s and if youhavelike a 57 on a snare or guitar cab with high spl whacking it then really the pot taper makes more sense.

Yeah, if I was mic'ing cabs and drums, I imagine the range would be just about right. Mic'ing for spoken word, it baffles. I didn't heed Sound on Sound's warning.

That was a whole 90s and on issue with mixers... they went over to ic based pres and started omitting the pad that would allow different value pots with 2 gain ranges... even if you bought a pretty big, fancy desk you might not get a o bvb d or a phase flip or maybe no high pass.... everybody was always shooting you something like unless you wanted to repurpose an foh desk or break the bank.

On the mackie 'neuteal' sound... like in the budget realm Crest was really neutral,not that crest was always budget but they leaned to value for dollar... to me Mackies always sound like they actually are missing something sonically? They dont add anything but you also get a little less back from your mix than went in. If you don't have another mixer next to it? No biggie. Definitely having had a bunch of these mixers around the crest my friend gave me showed it was a champ in the neutral camp. No color but robust sound, bolder dynamics for a compact mixer with an onboard PSU. Of course that was a monitor model versus the onyxes which are full fadermodels with proper busses and sends but there are fine crests out there if neutral is the goal. If you have space a crest century can be had for peanuts a lot of times and though an foh design it's a fine desk... they tend to be 24 channels and up with 8 busses.... anyway, I think the Crest guys have a new company where they make some similar mixers but better, I don't think the foxx roxx guy is with them but a lot if the guys who were there for the xrm rack mixers...

If you're in Europe look into the smaller DDA desks if you like a really neutral sound on a budget... they got absorbed by soundcraft during the soundcraft decline into prosumer gear but Dave Dearden went on to form Audient. So theres that!

I mean the Mackie is a good bit cheaper and some mixers I prefer are out of production and might need a bit of service to get going if priced well but you get what you pay for to some extent. If you need artisanal slots for your sourdough toast dont look at black and decker.

1. I'm looking at your EB, and you've got a ton of cool synths... what are you currently using to hear 3 or 4 of these machines together at the same time? Both of your interfaces are only 2 x 2, so I'm curious.

Exactly my problem, I can only listen to two instruments at a time. I tend to focus on one thing at a time right now anyway but yeah I want to do more, Ive just been biding my time, educating myself, doing my homework before I get a "proper" setup.

1. What's your primary motivation for wanting an analog mixer, instead of, for example, a dedicated 8 or 16 input audio interface? I know all the mixers you mentioned also double as audio interfaces, but you could put that same money into an interface purely dedicated to A/D conversion, and come away with better quality recordings... but there are a ton of good reasons why you might want the option to NOT involve a computer 100% of the time. Just curious where you're coming from on this front.

Yeah pretty much don't want to rely on a computer but I want to at least have that option available later perhaps. I like the idea of using something self-contained without a computer for now. I plan to buy a beefy computer purely for music production later this year, Im just not in a position to do that right now and the computers I have now are just not up to the task. Im still learning this stuff so likewise Ive not taken a deep dive into any DAWs just yet, still figuring that stuff out.

1. Given the number of synths you already have, why aren't you looking at something with more channels, like an Onyx24?

I don't really need to have everything wired up and available at all times - Im fine hooking up a few smaller setups and using a patchbay to swap things in and out as I need them. I figured 12 is a good number, not too small but not the biggest either. I live in NYC and dont necessarily want to devote more space to a bigger mixer.

1. Where is @jimmarch1 hiding? This is totally a Jim topic.

I was gonna say something in the first post but I forgot ;-)

Yeah pretty much don't want to rely on a computer but I want to at least have that option available later perhaps. I like the idea of using something self-contained without a computer for now. I plan to buy a beefy computer purely for music production later this year, Im just not in a position to do that right now and the computers I have now are just not up to the task. Im still learning this stuff so likewise Ive not taken a deep dive into any DAWs just yet, still figuring that stuff out.

Are you on Windows or Mac? If Windows, you'll need to consider how good the drivers currently are, and how long that driver is likely to be supported. Meaning, if you're getting a mixer with a built-in interface, you need to buy from a company that has proven they can deliver stable drivers over the long-haul... or just live with the fact that the interface-portion will become unusable when Windows 12 drops, which is likely way before anything starts to fail on the analog mixer portion of the device.

When I got my 1640i, I just needed something that could let me hear my synths and drum machines together without my computer being on. I was deciding between the 4-bus Allen & Heath Zed and the 4-bus Mackie options

Yeah, I just want to play several instruments and hear them away from a computer (Im a software engineer so already spend way too much time in front of a screen - the music was supposed to get me away from that and exercise other parts of my brain ;-)

There's also the budget and space considerations ;-) Ive been looking at Zoom LiveTrak 12, Tascam Model 12 and now the Mackie Onyx. There are all roughly around $600 price which is a number I can work with. From what Ive read online so far, the Mackie just seems the better choice in this price range.

1) The audio interface portion of Mackie's product did NOT require drivers on Mac... which means it would be more or less future proof. 7 years later, it's long since discontinued, but I'm still using it everyday, firewire into 2 (TWO!) different Apple adapters and it still performs the tasks I need. It'll develop some pops and clicks now and again, but I restart the beast and it behaves again. That's more longevity than anyone can/should expect from an audio interface.

I gave up on Windows in 2007 and never looked back - 9 times out of 10 the Macs don't need no stinking' drivers to hook stuff up.

• 1) all the usable gain in the mic pres is in the final quarter of the pot... and I'm not exaggerating. Even with a Cloudlifter, you'll be teetering on the edge of the range to use an SM7B at spoken-word volumes. It's a really shocking behavior for any Mackie, let alone their range-topping hybrid mixer. I'm glad to hear, from Jim, and from a review I just read, that the new Onyxes apparently don't have this issue.

Its unlikely Ill be recording my voice much anyway ;-) but if I ever need to that's good to know.

• 2) Mackie tends to squeeze in more routing/config options than their competitors, but at the cost of basic usability. I STILL have to consult the manual, 7 years in, because a lot of the layout (on this model, at least) just isn't something I can fully commit to memory and/or intuit. Never had that issue with other mixers, just this one.

Maybe that's improved in the the new Onyxes ?

To Jim's points, if you need a signal-combining appliance that is reliable, but devoid of analog magic, Mackie has historically proven themselves on these fronts... and my own first hand experience held true to that reputation.

Yeah simplicity is a big win. Maybe a year or two from now who knows, maybe Ill be doing more of this on a computer but for now just having a single box that doesn't empty my bank account and doesn't take up half my desk, just to dip my toes in the water makes sense to me.

I mean the Mackie is a good bit cheaper and some mixers I prefer are out of production and might need a bit of service to get going if priced well but you get what you pay for to some extent.

Not knowing much about this I would be wary of investing in something I know nothing about. I don't buy vintage synths for the same reason ;-)

There's also the budget and space considerations ;-) Ive been looking at Zoom LiveTrak 12, Tascam Model 12 and now the Mackie Onyx. There are all roughly around $600 price which is a number I can work with. From what Ive read online so far, the Mackie just seems the better choice in this price range.

Poking around, looks like the Zoom LiveTrak 12 requires drivers for full functionality in OS X? Its driverless mode is geared towards iOS. Maybe Zoom can be stricken from the list if this ends up being the case?

Soundcraft MTK 12 is fully driverless for Mac (good!), but was released in 2016 -- without having invested in poking at all the features, I'm guessing Tascam Model 12 (2020) and newest Mackie Onyx Series (2021) have squeezed in more functionality. But just an unvalidated assumption.

Re: my two gripes with my own old-gen Onyx, it's pretty much a whole new ballgame at this point, so gripes likely irrelevant. I would actually be surprised if old Onyx and new Onyx involved any of the same Engineers and Designers.

All-in-all, seems like you are headed in the right direction, given your current needs and considerations. Re: used/vintage mixers, I've got plenty of old synths that need some fixes here and there, and no regrets, but mix consoles and speakers are where I draw the line. Even I don't have the will to spend time and money on mixers with dead channels and gremlins to sort... I doff my hat to the hardcores like Jim that are willing to put in the extra work to get that extra bit of magic. The sonic benefits are definitely there, but I... I just can't... The mixer magic I want is the magic of turning it on everyday and everything works without issue :)

Update: check the USB Audio I/O capabilities of the new Onyx series. I'm seeing reddit grumblings that it's only 2 stereo pairs in/out at a time (citation needed).

The Tascam is true 12-in/10-out... which may seem like overkill for your needs right now, but trust me, having a 12-in/10-out interface is better than a 4-in/out every day of the week.

Gotta run, but do some spec poking if you can.

On the zoom live tracks, I'm pretty sure they're a standalone multitrack SD card recorder... unlike a lot of their competitors you're not just recording your master bus in stereo. However it's entirely digital apart from the mic amps. I was looking at the big one with faders recently for location recording before the unicorn variant and I think the livetrack is geared more towards that live rock band market than say live techno... but it could definitely work for someone who wanted to stream a live performance in stereo but be able to dump 48 or 96k files onto their computer to remix later. I'm sure the internal mixing engine is adequate for that and may be a better sound than budget analog. Although those budget AD converters may be your weak link then... you're going to run into that in general at this price point when you want an all in one solution that's a mixer and interface.

If you're only in need of like 12 channels and just want a stereo mix and the ability to interface with your new mac all in your apartment? the live track seems like overkill in some ways

Again, the onyx is tolerable... it doesn't sound bad or good and the old series has a proven track record as an interface and as a workhorse. I see a lot of onyxes trading around and they're clearly just as reliable as similar british offerings of that era... and given a choice between say a soundcraft spirit and the onyx? The spirit ain't that much more special. In fact I wouldn't invest in a soundcraft made since the ghost era of any size at any price point over a comparable Mackie... I would be looking at A&H these days.... the old soundcraft lineage really ended with the delta series when I was a teenager. I would also want to audition the tascam. Maybe you could try one next to a Zed somewhere and see which one pleases you more and then consider if they're that much better than the lowly Mackie.

If you want something special at a reasonable price old is usually the way to go...

An aside since you live in NYC: I was considering selling my 16 into 8 into 2 soundcraft 400b monitor desk which is fully serviced and ready for another 40 years of music... but as great as it sounds compared to what you're looking at, it's not a computer interface, you would still need some converters when you get a new mac... and I couldn't let it out of the house for 3 figs... it's also not really small although much smaller than my current desk. But if you're interested in a serious mixer let me know because it's just sitting right now... I needed more channels and routing....

And on that note I also suggest you buy more channels and features than you need. If you think 12 channels and just a master bus with 2 echo sends will do it? Go bigger. With mixers you always outgrow that minimum requirement you had in mind within a year. You'll want spare channels, sub groups and more echo sends and returns in no time if you're enjoying the analog mixer experience.

I would either get the biggest onyx I could afford, at least 16 into 4 into 2... or step up to a real desk and dedicated interface and really enjoy my sound.

I doff my hat to the hardcores like Jim that are willing to put in the extra work to get that extra bit of magic. The sonic benefits are definitely there, but I... I just can't... The mixer magic I want is the magic of turning it on everyday and everything works without issue :)

Look, if I could swing a brand new desk that meets my standards then I would have an audient 8024 heritage edition... but even if I could justify spending new car prices the thing still wouldn't fit in the space I have. Theres nothing compact today with the sound quality and features of my topaz... so far so good. I think I'll be sending it for preventative maintenance in the next year though... maybe down to Tennessee so I can get some opamp and power supply upgrades too... squeeze that extra 10% outta her. I still kinda wish I had gotten a solo logic because they're modular and i coulda DIYed it, but they're just that extra bit bigger so i couldn't have fit 32 channels... but i digress. If I ever get the studio out of the house I will definite be looking at customizing out an audient if I have enough in the savings account.

One other thought in this class and style of mixer is the presonus studiolive range. You may want to check out the ar16c. Not sure about its summing but I've had good experiences with presonus class a preamps and their EQs... I still own a eureka and think it's better than the similarly priced focusrite platinum channel strips of it's time. Heck, I would take it over a focusrite green series. I would also guess that as an interface the presonus will be a bit better than the competition (at least in sound quality terms) as high quality, affordable interfaces are what presonus is known for.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SLAR16c--presonus-studiolive-ar16c-mixer-and-audio-interface-with-effects?mrkgadid=3280890811&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gpla&mrkgbflag=0&mrkgcat=livesound&lighting&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=92700046934980550&lid=92700046934980550&ds_s_kwgid=58700005283820786&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000007215323&dsproductgroupid=427594062235&product_id=SLAR16c&prodctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&device=m&network=g&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&locationid=9007228&creative=226299461195&targetid=pla-427594062235&campaignid=953755110&awsearchcpc=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAieWOBhCYARIsANcOw0wQA6oPiQ1VDYBYp8nSGl5Y2Ewc7Ghouy9A7XY2nDYnxepQUPC57kUaAmKdEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

They're new to the mixer game but they definitely know how to make budget friendly analog gear and interfaces.

I doff my hat to the hardcores like Jim that are willing to put in the extra work to get that extra bit of magic. The sonic benefits are definitely there, but I... I just can't... The mixer magic I want is the magic of turning it on everyday and everything works without issue :)

Look, if I could swing a brand new desk that meets my standards then I would have an audient 8024 heritage edition... but even if I could justify spending new car prices the thing still wouldn't fit in the space I have. Theres nothing compact today with the sound quality and features of my topaz... so far so good.

And moving to in-the-box for your mixing needs is out of the question? It's your skill and your ears that clients really want, right?