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RAT Discussion

I've been eyeing a flat-box LM308 chip RAT from the '90s, but I've also had my eye on the turbo RAT. I've also seen a couple "You Dirty RAT"s floating around, and I've heard they're all a bit different. SO what's your favorite EB? I quite like that LM308 distortion, I think the clipping is magical and sounds like nothing else.

lemmee tell ya a little story 'bout a man named Chip!

people talk a lot of op-amp smack (because they don't understand what these circuits are ACTUALLY doing), but the fact of the matter is that the difference is subtle... the main thing with the 308 is that its a really shitty old device from teh birth of integrated circuits that has AWFUL audio performance, so the rat is really taking advantage of its poor bandwidth and piss poor slew rate. A rat with a better chip will sound a skidge different at lower gain settings, but still good. I beleive the turbo rat uses a more modern chip that's actually designed for audio but the turbo rat and dirty rat clip a lot more and way earlier so you aren't 'hearing' the chip... it just doesn't matter in these revised circuits. Personally what I lvoe about the rat is that it makes a surprisingly nice OD or dirty boost with gain turned down and in that situation you're not eharing the diodes, just the chip, unelss you dig in real hard. I would say that the original rat is the only IC-opamp based pedal where the choice of chip impacts the tone. People talk a lot but this is the one.... thing is, you ay not like the chip's tone, its a sound, but a more modern, hifi opamp is also a good sound in this circuit, tis just a less less 'ratty' at low gain. FOr abss I would venture that the LM308 is probably not a great choice, its going to smear your low end. Inf act, if Iw ere doing a bass rat I would use a very hifi burr brown opamp and I would take out a good deal of the high apss filtering and maybe add a midrange notch into the circuit with a 2 pole RC filter.

Anyway, what you're hearing at any gain level above like 2 ona rat is the diodes and those are the same in all the rats as far as I know. In fact, even if they're not? one silicon diode is just like another, man. THey clip the same way at the same forward voltage. CHange materials to germanium or to LEDs? that's another story... but any back to abck pair of solicon diodes tog round will do rpetty much the sameshit, man. In my opinion you are eharing what people are telling you to hear... its a rgeat way to sell a rat with a 308, onne of the cheapest chips out there, for inflated prices. Based on parts cost an LM308 rat should cost LESS than one with a more modern opamp designed purely for audio use.

that's my .02... that said, my actual rat is a late 80s or early 90s one with a 308.... but that's only because I think I bought it in the 90s and that's what was available used for cheap when I wanted one. I have never once worried about what opamp was in there or in my tubescreamer. If Iw ere designing a mic pre I would care, for a pedal that's lopping off the signal with diodes? Mountains.... molehills...

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

I liked the Deucetone one on bass a lot-- more modern and a couple different circuits inside it. Sounds killer and lets you stack two rats on top of each other.

Interesting about the 308, it makes a lot of sense due to the kind of gain you get out of it. Agreed about Rats as od/boost, I think they sound fantastic. Especially that 1981 pedal that's just a Rat clone... really doesn't do the buzzsaw-y gain I think of but nails that smooth low-breakup RAT sound

I've not looked inside a deucetone, but I can guess that one side is a classic rat and the other has a different chip and different type of diodes, probably LEDs

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

they're weird, they've got 3 different sounds you can switch between on either side. There's even a "clean" one to get that dirty filtered OD

its just the diodes, like I said... one will be the normal diodes, another will be germanium or LEDs, the clean is no diodes, just the sound of the opamp's crappy slew rate

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

Sweet. I think it's a Deucetone for me, though if I can find an LM308 for cheap (shouldn't be too hard) then I'm springing, if only for the reputation. Thanks for the advice as usual

if the chips are socketed you can probably yank the chips out of the deucetone and replace them with LM308s assuming they aren't 308s already... Its pretty likely they chose an IC with the same pin out as the 308 if they didn't use a 308. 308s really don't cost anything, man. You could get a whole box of them for the cost of a rat.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM358P?qs=X1HXWTtiZ0QtOTT8%252bVnsyw%3D%3D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4aHQyu244AIVgkOGCh3klgu4EAQYASABEgINGvD_BwE

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

while looking for a gut shot and schematic of the deucetone a second ago I discovered this beauty:

http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/proco/rat/juggernaut

bass voiced rat, parallel effects loop, gut pic appears to be LM308 chip... can't quite read it though

the deucetone apparently does not use the 308 (assuming itnernet scuttlebutt is correct, no one ever seems to publish a schematic of take a clear shot of the PCB) but I really don't think it would be hard to switch chips. assuming the IC they used has 6 legs, it should drop right in. You may have to do a little unsoldering and resoldering. That's it. In a decetone I would keep one side stock. If it were me I would go to a big box store like GC with a screwdriver in my pocket and ask to try a deucetone, then open it up once they handed it to me. See what chip is in there, write the info down to make sure the legs are the same as a 308, see if its socketed or soldered to the PCB... why not have 2 different chips in a 2 headed rat?

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

Great idea. I'm definitely going to pull this move, though more than likely I'm scoring my gear off Reverb. My GC never has any interesting pedals-- it's literally a wall of used TS9s and the occasional DS-1, haha. I can handle a little soldering, and I've been trying to get better at it recently, as I'm working up to building my first bass.

as long as you're fast enough not to burn out a pot you can do a bass... put a little flux on the back of the pot when you round it. Get electrical flux, don't use plummer's flux. The stuff for plumming works but its acidic and it slowly eats through your wire. If you can't wire up an isnturment then you should playa coustic. Its really easy.

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

Will do about the flux. And yeah, learning wiring was the best thing for me-- saved me so much money in tech expenses.

there's not a learning curve on guitar control wiring, if you can't follow a schematic, let alone some of the simplified diagrams available on the internet you probably have a learning disability. There's pretty much zero knowledge required to wire up a couple pickups, a switch and some controls. If you have a bunch of switches brian may style Ic an see screwing up. You reverse 2 leads in the wrong spot and the on offs will function oddly. but nay standard wiring is pretty self explanatory and even abd soldering willt end to work.

Why don't you go on byoc's site and just get a rat kit, I think they call it the rodent.

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

you know what, not a bad idea at all. I'll look into it, should be a fun project.

https://buildyourownclone.com/products/mouse

its apparently the Mouse... maybe GGG's kit is the Rodent.... but it has the 3 diode switch from teh deucetone ;-) they also make a little kit that's just stock rat tone, no battery option: https://buildyourownclone.com/collections/distortion/products/lil-mouse-kit

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

oh awesome. thanks man, this is perfect.

oh awesome. thanks man, this is perfect.

the lil mouse is cheap as hell, you couldn't source the aprts yourself cheaper and you would damned lucky tog et an older rat that you wouldn't wanna mod for that cheap. Even with a painted enclosure, cheap cheap cheap... and the pedal is such a simple build

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

yeah. It doesn't have the deucetone switch which kinda sucks but the Mouse itself is out of stock so it may not be a bad shout.

well here's the run down, stock silicon diodes? most pedals use them, they have a resonable voltage drop and a nice crunchy sound. Germanium? they have a lot of voltage drop which will lower the output of the gain circuit forcing the recovery circuit to do more work so you will have less output at a given volume in realtion to your gain control then stock and the total output will be a bit lwoer even with both knobs dimed. They have a smooth sound though and have been very popular over the eyars. They're the sound of the mxr dist+ versus the DOD OD250 which is the same design with silicon. The klon also uses 'secret sauce' germanium diodes but I don't know how much of the klon sound is the NOS diodes and how much is the unique way they're implemented. Also, any pedal with assymetrical clipping will use a germanium diode with the silicon, led, mosfet or whatever on one side to make the clipping threshold different on one side of the wave form. So theat's the SD1, msot every fulltone epdal including the OCD... okay then there's LEDs, these are less used these days but red LEDs were the clipping in the rockman stuff by tom shuolz of Boston, its got a sound. Then there's mosfets. Mosfets are not diodes, but if you only wire up 2 legs they will behave as diodes. Fulltone favors these. I think its more of a marketing ploy so he can put 'mosfet' on a pedal that actually just gets its gain from chips. In the case of the OCD the extra germanium diode on one side and the uniqueway the diodes are implemented really impact the sound more than the choice of mosfets as diodes. But hey, Mike Fuller loves mosfets.

If you're good at sodlering and unsoldering you could just take the mini mouse kit and get some extra diodes of each type and try them all and then keep the ones you like the best.

You could also omit the diodes for 'clean mode' where you willg et a lofi boost until you have the gain high enough for the first stage of the 308 to clip the seecond stage. This will also make the epdal insanely loud with more than enough output to bludgeon a tube amp's first tube into total breakup. Think LPB1 with a tone control.

GEAR:
  • Roland Juno-6
  • Gibson SG Standard
  • Vox AC30 Guitar Combo Amp

If one of those pedals are creating the tones you're searching for get the one you search for. BUT...the RAT pedal with white writing is the most coveted. If you search for it you can obviously see the difference in the writing. Rock on \m/