jimmarchi1's forum posts 8022

I mean yeah. They both sound good. Similar too. The soundtracs has a better stereo image, probably due to the pan pot buffers... it sounds a little clearer and 'larger'... a little more bus headroom. If i redo the power supply I can probably get the topaz head and shoulders ahead of the 400b sonically. I mean both sound a lot like a trident 80b and not even that dissimilar to an SSL 4000e. I would get flamed for writing that on gearslutz but I'm not lying. I feel like the SSL has more bandwidth but that's a subjective impression based on decades old experience. It's not like a 4000 is airy like a neve though. I think they sound harsh.... the mixes are very 'forward.' My 2 cheapo desks are a little softer sounding and tend to sound less in your face for better or worse. That's just my impressions. The #1 analog mixer concern is functionality. Features, channel count, routing. It's nice when it doesn't sound bad but I've done a record with an alesis budget mixer and it lacked punch but sounded okay and made this artist happy way back when.

All of the above will sound the same assuming the motu is converting. We have equivalent opamps at 18v in dead similar designs. The SSL may have lower self noise but we're still really negligible in the budget products. If you're a dolphin there's a bit more bandwidth above 20k you can hear from a 5534 on the channels vs tl071s however its circumstantial to a degree and there's there's other factors like signal impedance that are literally preferential.

The guys who run tape op are solid dudes... and are fun at the bar! At least the couple I've hung with. I've definitely read lukewarm reviews of products that bought advertising so you know that's not driving their content.

A lot of their steadiest advertisers are service based.... techs... I found my go to mastering lab through tape op!

What pro-audio publication do you, personally, trust?

Tape Op... Andy Hong Hong don't pull no punches

Personally I struggled with 16 channels for a year. There were several reasons to retire the 400b including unbuffered pan pots with poor crosstalk and soundstage behavior but what really got me was that people recording on their computer aren't thinking about track count. Simultaneous channel count is a concern for them when tracking as an ensemble but once you're into overdubs? I've gotten stuff with an individual track for a single percussion hit, man. So as many channels as you can fit and afford! I was originally thinking 24 into 8 for an upgrade but went 32 into 8 when I found a desk I could fit that meets my routing and sound quality requirements. I just can't imagine what I could use the big6 for because it's not big in any way.

I think this merits a blind head-to-head between the Model12 and the BigSix. Someone needs to be bold enough to do it.

I would love to do it but lack the buy in... or I'm unwilling to pay it! Which is the same thing. But the other thing to consider here is the non sweepable mids. Maybe SSL managed to squeeze that little bit extra from their 5534 opamps with a great power supply and I'm sure their 1 knob vca compressrs are a bit better... BUT is that enough additionalsound quality to remove functionality like a mic pre on every channel and sweepable mids? An e242 eq module is fully parametric! Theres nothing expensive in here, I'm telling you. The 5532 is a buck at most and that's if you buy less than 10. Is all the cost THAT Corp VCAs, p&g faders and bigger electrolytics for the PSU?

To me the main point the reviewer makes is balanced insert points which are hard to come by under 5 figures! But also unimportant unless you're a big facility doing commercial projects and gave huge wire runs. And these are not transformer balanced outs and ins, electronic balancing is not adding sonic benefits. Theres a lot of unspecific gushing because he's listening to the logo and the big advertising payment SSL gave his boss!

Huh. I never even think about that stuff lol

Aww jeez Ken. Making the new guy work, huh? I can guess that it's a mosfet power amp with a 200v DC power rail and an AC line for the heaters of a 12ax7 just by the name. It would be a hoot if the poor sounding distortion circuit the OP mentioned utilized both stages of the tube and the clean tone was all solid state! It wouldn't surprise me. Vintage kustom gear was entirely primitive transistors and it sounds really good. Listen to some CCR like fortunate son.

I really became a forum loudmouth back in the olden days of the internet but more in the 'I'm hurting your feelings to help you learn' way. Or I tell myself that.

This is interesting and full of solid info about opamps and even a bit on sample rates. Slightly off topic but it informs the discussion and mirrors my thoughts, particularly the bit about sighted listening:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html?m=1

I think the big6 is counting on you hearing the SSL logo. It's not 2400USD better than the lowly tascam model12. They're probably more similar than they are different working on typical IC building blocks using ubiquitous 5534 and tl071 opamps (or the dual/quad versions, 5532, tl072, tl074) that have been around forever.

@pkennethk and I started talking about the SSL Big6 in a Mackie Onyx thread and I've gotten deep into the SSL rabbit hole since he asked my opinion. Thus thread is more if a general SSL thread but I'm really focusing on value for dollar (or pound?) Which I now know is pretty poor.

As a guy who has worked on some 4000 E&G desks I always find myself telling people that they are not sonically special. They don't sound bad at all, just no better than anything else. SSL made a feature packed desk with great automation that had everything you really need to mix a record... I love that about them, but when you start subtracting features like they did on the origin console and more egregiously the big6 usb mixer are you really getting your money's worth?

Sound is of course subjective but design elements aren't soooooo....

I sat down with my 90s budget desk service schematics and pdfs of the schematics of the trident 80b from which so many mixers like mine are derived as well as the schematics of the SSL 4000E and mssochistically compared them all and I can say that while the channels run at different impedance using different ICs and the SSL packs on the features, these desks are very similar at a channel level. They also use thgt e same summing IC (so does mackie) in a slightly different arrangement that's more to do with their choice of fader amps than due to any sonic benefits. Both arrangements have drawbacks due to component choices informed by cost and can be modded a bit for improved performance without swapping in modern audio specific ICs like those made by Burr Brown.

Something like big6 eliminates a lot of features while touting it's great circuits that are just SSLs take on the bog standard opamp cookbook circuits that are in mixers that are less than 1/3 the price. I'll admit you are probably getting a better 18v power supply (I hope you are for that money) which will give you somewhat better transient response... I'm sure the ground scheme is fantastic, SSLs great at PSU stuff thanks to building behemoths before it attempted desktop mixers. But I can tell you most of the cost is the logo. The neve logo means something, as it turns out the SSL logo really doesn't. Their reputation is based on well implemented features but in my view they're out there selling a superior sound to people who don't really know while stripping all the features and value from these products. Theres nothing wrong with their circuits it's just that they're not unique, just overpriced.

Nerd paragraph: Just for reference all SSL amp circuits from mic and line inputs to outputs are built on the ne5534 chip, a low noise opamp used by everybody for summing since the 80s. I dont think they went that way for performance... I can tell you my soundtracs is pretty close to an 80b (admittedly my desk is inline versus an 80b being split topology, that's just routing) everywhere but the mic/line amps which are more like the later super analogue ssl circuits than the transformer fronted discrete 80 series pres or the transistor balanced 4000 preamps... and an 80b is only a whisker different at a circuit level.

I've written more stuff but it's at an even nerdier level... ask me anything and I will get deep into these IC based desks and mixer/interfaces...

Admit it, we all want some faders and knobs. Let's talk about what makes them tick and what you get for the outlay from a mackie to anything short of Neve grade.

My smart-phone-inept-ass still can't get this to work. This stuff is why I hang back as a mod lately. It's not what I'm good at now that we changed the submission criteria and its 100% of what we get asked now... I know, its shocking how inept I am when I can read a giant console schematic but its true!

I've been having good luck with pretty much anything that I can right+click & "copy image address" for, whether it's source image is dead or not... but just in case:

https://imgur.com/eNYtzzD

You're a genius.

Edit:

Any thoughts on what to name the thread?

I'm a bit of a PT Barnum when it comes to thread naming, I want butts in seats. Your good taste might steer you to something better than what I'd reach for:

"SSL Big SiX really worth it?"

"Opinions on SSL Big SiX?"

"Breaking down the SSL BiG SiX"

"Is the SSL Sound really worth it?"

etc etc

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the angle you wanna start from.

Well I don't have access to an SSL big6 service schematic so maybe more like "where's the fairy dust in an SSL?" I'm assuming their marketing literature isn't BS and that they're using the same circuits nd components made famous in the 80s and 90s... which is easy to believe knowing what's in there now.

I missed ajaik's DL political dig on first-read, but I appreciate it.

I'm resisting the urge to trot out my Keynes, Smith and Marx

Right on, man. Facebook groups are a great source of misinformation on any topic.

Look, in pcb gear with multiple tubes you want a whole backup unit on the road. Its not as sturdy and tolerant of temperature swings as point to point, turret, eyelet and terminal strip based gear. It's better in lots of other ways and is incredibly consistent though. But if you gig heavily backup everything you can't do without or make sure its generic stuff you can rent last minute in an unfamiliar city...

I didnt gig and tour vintage fender and marshall for a decade because they're my favorite sound, it was reliability and the ability to easily rent reissues if something went sideways. Eventually I started doing backups when we went further afield and finances permitted. I never had those pieces go down at a show but I've had other amps flat out blow up... regular maintenance helps, fresh tubes, spare tubes and fuses but nothing works indefinitely on the road. I used to have friends who liked to tinker send me out with their prototypes because if I couldn't break them then they were bullet proof. And I'm not that hard on gear either but the show schedule exerted a high degree of constant stress on parts.

shrinking the middle class means shrinking mid-range products too.

Either its the cheapest crap or its priced out of range...

I try not to talk politics and economics here but amen.

I meant anyone here using a mixer of decent size in their project studio that might want to educate themselves along with me.

Oh yeah. Derp. Now I get it. My kid is turning my brain to mush!

I'm by no means an expert on all things mixer but I can definitely talk shop on IC based desks on and the SSLs are even more IC based than I had realized, just a different riff on the trident 80b recipe with extra seasoning and lots of garnishes.

Edit:

Any thoughts on what to name the thread?

And if we really get it cooking I'll see if we can pull in a few of the 4 & 8 bus folks in the community who have so far been quiet.

4 and 8 bus? You mean like the in line Mackie sr24 models? Oooor?

Can you come up with a decent picture? The reverb pics are pretty poor. The only useable shot I can find on Google links to a dead link on GC so we can't link it and I can't download it to host it on equipboard either.

Lets give the OP a chance to find a better shot if a mk3 teardrop with a bigsby...

If you're gigging weekly then backups are a good call. The fryette is extremely well made and shouldn't be susceptible to pcb based failures like cheaper pcb amps. I cant speak to the synergy modules. Just remember, with all tube gear in winter make sure to load in early and let the amp come up to room temperature before powering up and let the tubes and chassis comedown to room temp before taking the amp into colder weather after your set. I cannot stress this enough. Most pcb and tube failures can be traced (no pun intended) back to extreme temperature swings coupled with mechanical vibrations from riding in cars. Tubes will lose their vacuum and sometimes even crack, pcbs will warp causing traces to peel up...

Hey PKen my man. In a fit of masochism I've been sitting with the schematics in my console's hard copy service manual as well as PDFs of it's great grand daddy the trident 80b and the 1982 service manual for the SSL4000E including both the 02 and 242 eq revisions upon which the big6 is supposedly based. I have lit if insights from input to power supply, none of them complimentary to SSL's current marketing department if you wanna start a new thread. I'm doubling down on my negative impressions of big6 and my longstanding opinion that SSLs repytarion was built on features, routing flexibility and automation but not superior design or components unless you are talking strictly about ground scheme and switch quality... it's a lot if switches on even a 4k.

Isn't thatjust Yamaha's modular control surface for cubase/nuendo?

You're asking me ? 😂

I was being 50% rhetorical?

You can't use the vox showroom images... can you find something we can link without linking the whole page or that ican download and then upload to EB?

Although I had this 1 thought now that I'm pretty sure my soundtracs desk was pricey for a non modular when new... about 5k without the optional meterbridge... still, when we compare the SSL offering with less than 60% the functionality? It better sound drastically better.

That was a rhetorical question mark. I fact-checked before I made that post. You were correct, it's definitely not sweepable.

Ah yes. I just used my eyes there. That may contain the same topology as the E series but it's not even close. The E series is not the sweetest eq. It's less screamin' shrill than G and J series fitted with those stock designs instead of bring customed with E series eq but it's about being parametric on a desk. To even get close I would need a switch to go between widesnd narrow Q and even then 3 bands? I'm really underwhelmed with SSLthese days.

I have no clue what one would use the big6 for. It's not enough preamps to track drums doing anything but beatles techniques... the super analogue pre is not anyone's first choice for vocals and if I have to buy outboard pres for drums etc to do an ensemble I'll be using those for the lead vocal... I guess it's cool for guitar overdubs or like live tracking an nin record?

I don't feel like I could mix on this. It lacks routing, channel count and even the eq features of my lowly soundtracs desk eq.... I could sum with it in hybrid but then the compressors are worthless since 1 knob and no stereo link (I dont always link a stereo bus but sometimes you have to) is not usually going to cut it in that role. Maybe you can use them printed for nice hot overdubs? I don't get what the thing is for. It's not enough to do any job effective at a professional level and its price tag and supposedly sound quality are geared towards professional work... or at least semi pro like myself. The power supply better pack some serious punch because that's most of the SSL sound, that and the bus comp.

For what it costs I bought a 32 into 8, 6aux, inline semi pro desk thats been babied for 20 years that sounds damn good with money left for a whole sabre loaded interface network with more io than I often need not to mention gobs of cable, some of it custom... if I were soundcraft I would work up a competitive product based on the old saphyre or the even ghost including some of the common mods and offer 16 or 24 into 8, inline routing, 4+ auxes and dedicated echo returns and the interface and controller features for the same price. I think it could be done thanks to modern manufacturing. Would the big6 sound better? Somewhat.... would a useable studio centerpiece negate those sonic benefits? Hell yeah it would.

End rant.

I 9only see 3 knobs on the big6 and they don't look like dual concentric pots. SSL eq should be 4 bands with dual filters, fully parametric.

What's your opinion on the BiG SiX?

My first impression when atlas, vintage king and sweetwater spammed me to gush about it wsd that its not enough mixer to mix most projects on, it would just be an elaborate summer if you believe in summing.... nor does it offer enough preamps to be a project studio front end. 4 mics and some line ins even if you add outboard preamps to get some more microphones up will just not be sufficient for even that level of paying work unless you're exclusively hip hop and modern pop and you dont ever do rock bands or let the roots come by. Its dead aimed at the amateur singer songwriter and dj who dabbles in hardware market... I think they learned from that little notepad they released previoudly.... I'm sure big6 sounds good but SSL is about large channel count,every processor you need o every channel, big power supplies that deliver punch but need to be left on virtually all the time.... it just seems like for what they charge you're paying mainly for the few pres and the name. Without all that analog dynamics processing and eq, routing and the massive power reserve for bass transients I just don't know what's so special about an SSL. It's got a 1 knob compressor and what they call e series eq but we ith only 3 bands and it doesn't look sweepable let alone parametric. Wtf? How much better is it than stuff costing less than 1/10th? I'll have to look at it again later but I'm dubious. I'm even dubious of the new origin console. But this thing has the feature set of a $600 mixer from what I can tell and you're just relying on their word you're getting the sound quality... personally I don't think the SSL spund is that spectacular. The desks are super functional to the point where Andy Wallace can use a G series or bigger with almost no outboard to mix all those hits.... every channel has basically what you need to mix and the routing i7 s monstrously flexible to exploit all those tools to the full. You subtract anything and you gotta start asking why its $3I? No gates? Really? And the EQ is severely limited. SSL E series EQ is workmanlike but it's by no means some magical engancer... 4 fully parametric bands per channel and splittable filters are what they built their rep on.

Edit: I think they're trading on their name to people who have never been behind an E or G. There are much better sounding desks but very few bring all those features to the party and the few that have were and still are in unobtainium price ranges... only very famous 1st call music studios and movie studios can finance a neve 88rs for example. And AMS/neve were late to the party with that desk. I think it's a 21st century design. Everyone was chasing SSL's feature set to the point where the matketwas a lot smaller due to Napster and CPU technology by the time Amek and AMS caught up.

Theres nothing under 5 figs anymore that's meant for studio use.... people want a mixer, you can tell by how many mixer/interfaces they sell. Theres a big gap in the market these days between like a model 16 and an Audient 8016 (I think its called)... the days of even the mackie sr24 8bus are over. I'm surprised behringer hasn't used midas to tap thus market but maybe they really wouldn't sell any.

I wish there was at least something on the market like SSL BiG SiX, but with modular/serviceable/mod-able channel strips. Something with the per-channel accessibility of like a Soundcraft 200B. Am I overlooking anything out there under $10k new?

If it doesn't need to be fully modular there's a 16 channel audient or maybe a 16 channel trident 68. Not fully modular designs but fully modular is expensive new....

I wonder if the model 12 uses your standard budget mixer ICs orsome new surface mount versions. Almost every mixer/console under 50k since trident released the ever popular 80 series has been loaded with tl072s for eq and tl072s and/or tl074s for fabder emps etc and then ne5532 chips for the summing amps. Nothing really wrong with those OP amps despite their mediocre slew rate on paper and using newer, 'better' chips can cause oscillation in some circuits like thus and will definitely need more DC blocking from c ou pulling caps which can negate some of the benefits... however there are options that are perfectly suited too... it would be great if tascam took a hint from the modding community and went with thru hole ICs and sockets on the PCB for easy swapping. If my desk were socketed I would take it apart and try some swaps... as it stands it's a lot of trouble just to unsolder the old fader amps and resolder in a burr brown alternative 32 times letslone try to hit up 32 4 band EQs which may not provide much of an improvement. Even 10 summing Amos is pretty intimidating and I'm pretty darn handy.

I really wish companies would take a cue from the boutique guitar pedal market and socket this stuff so the end user can tinker with their sound. Creation Audio, formerly Soundcraft USA's service department, has some really cool opamp for this style of console that might help even a Mackie out but getting them in there is a bear without really pro level desoldering gear. A lot of mixer modders just go ahead and add sockets to make the whole process easier as they experiment. Why not go that route as a manufacturer? Probably some nonsense safety laws!

Isn't thatjust Yamaha's modular control surface for cubase/nuendo?

I dont get where they put the inserts viz a viz the converters but everything else makes sense... i feel like if the inserts cant be post converter and pre eq I would prefer the inserts post eq but that's no longer in fashion. With a fixed bandwidth seeepable mid and fixed frequency shelving 3 band eq post eq insertsmake as much sense as anything. It's not surgical eq, it's for finesse.

Auxes with no returns do not echo sends make but that's been acosta cutting measure since always... mono you can tolerate as long as you can doa stereo return I guess. I put up with that but I also have a number of archaic mono to stereo processors I really love the sound of.

I doubt any of my gripes will bother Ajaik.

Now I wish they would make a giant in line version with serious routing, 4 band eq, maybe 2 inserts points on each channel, 8 busses, stereo sends and a beefed up off board rackmount PSU. I would try that out even if it lacked some character! It would kill to replace my interfaces with an all in one with all these facilities built right in. Heck, if they had a motorized fader option to interface with my daw then I would be sold even if my individual interfaces and console sounded a smidge better....

That's the dream there.... it wouldn't price out below 10 grand, somehow adding features and channels increases price exponentially rather than proportionally. But come on tascam, give me a Model 32+

At 2:27 I'm seeing a giant collection of modular control surfaces... now I did see a mixing console just prior in the jurassoc park part... at a glance it may have been the neve 88rs at Skywalker sound. Although maybe the amek media51 formerly at Disney... a 9098 on crack setup for surround. Possibly the greatest analiog desk for film not that I've ever touched one, I'm not even sure how many were made... the 2 desks look rather similar and I believe use tu he same flying faders. The 88rs aint no slouch for a recent AMS Neve. It's their SSL and if anyone wants to give me theirs to go over to mixing in the box with a control surface I'll come pick it up with a truck. I don't have any money but I'll move that piece of analig junk outta your way :)

Looking at the model 12 specs the 1 knob compressor is a really great addition for your application. I'm sure it's nothing special, just a cheap VCA design with fixed ratio and program dependent time constants but it will allow you to get a nice hot level for every instrument without worrying about overs when you sweep a filter... if you set it so it's not working at all at your baseline synth settings it should grab whenever you're at risk of overloading hopefully without coloring your sound too much.

It's a nice addition particularly with the high pass filter (which I would assume at 100hz is before the compressor although an 80hz shelf in the eq is a bit goofy with a 18db/Oct 100hz hpf but they should still interact a bit) so as far as channel features go the only other thing I could ask for at this price point is another mid band on the eq... and a phase flip... for my own uses I prefer phase to hpf, but for yours this is probably better. For reference my behemoth of a desk that's 3 times the channels and 10 times the routing lacks compression and high pass filters but has phase flip and 2 mid bands with identical shelving band frequencies... so you're getting a lot of the channel features of an old entry level desk for the professional market with some rudimentary dynamics control thrown in. It's a shame it's only 8 mono channels but that's what you've settled on.... it really just lacks dual channel paths, sub groups and true echo sends with patch points but it gives you an fx engine and you probably don't want to start collecting tape echoes and digital reverbs any time soon anyway!

Have either of you folks seen a block diagram in the documentation? I'm curious where the AD conversion is in relation to the dynamics and eq and also how the signal flows between those sections... is the comp post eq, pre eq or sandwiched between the filter and shelves/sweep-mid? Post eq or sandwiched would be best, pre eq and filter is a little goofy to me, that's a very unusual use case for this sort of compressor. Of course, location of inserts, filters etc can gave a lot to do with driving the next stage or send and return at an appropriate impedance without needing to add an additional opamp... still curious.

If you buy the onyx you're nuts. The tascam is better in every way that would matter to me. If it doesn't sound better I'm sure it won't sound worse! It's really a do all little utilitymixer, recorder and interface.

Rack mounting is where Mackie excels like few others

Agreed (okay, crest s pretty good at it too) but the angle of the rack you're using versus your lighting can be quite frustrating with all those controls jammed in versus normal 1u ir 2u processors with a lot less to read....

Another plus for the Model 12: I think I prefer the inputs on the back rather than the top.

While top inputs are easier to see if you're planning to swap input sources a lot, rear inputs have the advantage of not collecting dust when nothing is plugged into them... gravity. On a brand new item this isn't an immediate problem but it's a concern and just as you should try to loosen dust with compressed air and then vacuum out your faders periodically you should hit those top facing jacks on a regular basis too. I'm pretty lax about it but it's a good idea.

Another unrelated kind of question: I have one of those multiarm desk mounts, the kind of thing that can hold monitors, a laptop and a smaller device above the desk. The monitor arms have VESA mounts and I’m wondering if I could attach a VESA mount to the bottom of a mixer ? I plan to upgrade to Ergotron mounts which can hold up to 42 lbs on a single arm…

On paper it should work... my soundcraft 400b might be VESA mountable on paper as it's about 40lbs if I recall correctly but I dont think I would attempt it.... in fact I would use caution even with something light and compact. Also you might wanna think about the angle your Jack's will wind up at when desk mounted as your suggesting. Will it be ergonomic? Are all the controls easy to operate and see? Seeing settings is as much about how your lighting hits them as the angle. The traditional desk setup of a mixer generally gets you the best readability... when you start racking ssd smaller mixers at steep angles or fully vertically the knobs will tend to shadow the marking which can be annoying on a piece if gear you dont yet know intimately.

Also, if you have to drill holes you've immediately destroyed the resale value when you inevitably need to trade up because 12 inputs and the limited routing you're looking at cramps your style by the end if the year... heh

That's interesting, I never really considered using CV outside a rack with any audio gear.

It's a feature of the motu 828es that I really enjoy though I don't use it as much as I ought to. I really dont use my synths as much as I ought to lately.... so yeah