Hi, I'm completely new here and I have no idea where to start.

yeah, I admitted as much after my anti-headphone spiel, but I still think mixing in a sketchy room with budget monitors yields better results for most people than mixing on headphones without speakers... the cost thing is pretty hard to deny though. I have a lot of money tied up in speakers.

9yover 9 years ago

the election's over...

Brits, don't say a word.

9yover 9 years ago

Questions about Mic'ing guitar amps (and finding the right mic)

whenever I get stuck I like to open that site and click 'random card', sometimes it helps

9yover 9 years ago

[FOR SALE] Access Virus C Desktop Module (discount for my Equipboard friends)

ah congrats... I have been thinking of getting a virus for shits and giggles and thought I would check with you before shopping around

9yover 9 years ago

Hi, I'm completely new here and I have no idea where to start.

I love this sentence, hahaha; "Don’t let the name confuse you - they are called 'monitors', but are in actuality just speakers (they have nothing to do with the display sort of monitor)." I cracked up when I read this mostly because it never occurred to me there could be any confusion... and yet its so obvious someone who wasn't raised around studio equipment might have no idea what people are talking about when they say studio monitors.

By the way, I think you guys are wrong and for music production and NOT DJing good speakers are more important than headphones. Even the best pro grade cans are a bit deceiving, especially ubiquitous closed back designs that lock all the sound pressure over your ears (great for overdubs and a quick reference, not so great for accuracy).

Additionally ALL headphones present a wonky stereo image. If you are going to use nice headphones you should do 90% of the mixing in mono and not commit to any panning until you can throw it up on properly spaced speakers otherwise your great headphone mix may suffer from a mushy center image when played on speakers. Others will disagree, but there are psychoacoustic thigns going on with headphones that you have to be aware of when mixing without another reference.

Although for the OP this is a ways down the road.

9yover 9 years ago

Hi, I'm completely new here and I have no idea where to start.

if I had no musical grounding I would start with Ableton Live, a Push controller and maybe a cheap analog synth like a little korg volca with the built in sequencer to learn basic subtractive synthesis and generate phrases without a keyboard. A midi keyabord won't do you a ton of good if you don't know what the keys mean, so just bypass it for now.

You will probably really want to concentrate on sample/loop manipulation and sound design at first and maybe get a basic music theory book to learn some rudiments of how more traditional music is constructed. Electronic music gives the complete novice the ability to do some cool things if they have a vision and and patience, but it never hurts to learn the fundamentals of western music too.

none of this is simple and intuitive to work out for most people, its just as tricky as learning a traditional instrument and almost every branch of electronic music, every instrument and every piece of software has its own learning curve... be persistent and you will get it and start being able to express yourself effectively because once you learn some terminology and get over a couple of the early hurdles it gets a lot easier moving forward

you will probably want one of these too:

http://equipboard.com/posts/best-audio-interfaces

In closing, I recommend investing as little money as possible starting out just in case you don't like making music. While software and affordable instruments and studio gear have democratized music creation, its not for everyone.

as for DJing, its a creative process but you aren't 'making' music, its more curatorial.... personally I don't get software DJing, its really easy that way and not nearly as much fun as the way we did it in the 90s... though digital certainly is a lot more cost/space effective! When I finally sold off one of my old Technics, the mixer and unloaded my massive vinyl collection it made me a mint and freed up a lot of space for more guitars, amps and synthesizers. I am sure the guy who posted above has a good ide how DJs do it these days, I am a dinosaur.

9yover 9 years ago

Hi, I'm completely new here and I have no idea where to start.

do you already play an instrument? have you ever written a song? you have a goldtop as your user picture but nothing on your equiboard...

http://equipboard.com/forums/dj-electronic-music/topics/hello-i-m-am-completely-new-to-this-and-i-am-picking-out-gear-and-software?page=1#post-10086

9yover 9 years ago

hello I'm am completely new to this and I am picking out gear and software.

there's a ton of articles on this site about what to buy and how to start

do you actually play an instrument already? have you ever written any music or are you starting from scratch?

if you are new to synthesis I would stay away from software with gobs of presets... scrolling thru banks of presets and samples isn't teaching you anything and its a pretty soulless exercise... in your shoes I would take advantage of the plethora of cheap, stable analog synths on the market and buy a used analog unit with a couple oscillators and a basic fixed architecture as well as an inbuilt step sequencer to learn the absolute basics. Korg's volca bass or keys can be had second hand for a little over 100 USD and are good, meat&potatos subtractive mono and poly synths respectively with classic step sequencers to learn on. To learn other types of synthesis you can go with softare. FL studio producer should come with Sytrus which is a fully featured FM synth with matrix routing, extensive envelope generation and 3 subtractive filters that will teach you a lot of concepts if you stay out of the enormous preset bank for anything but deconstructing the sounds for educational purposes. For additive synthesis and wavetable synthesis the reigning kings are NI massive and Xfer Serum respectively, but where wavetable is concerned for me nothing tops the old stuff like the Wave or some of the Ensoniq/Emu 90s units. They have a sound and the limitations even as software emulations help you focus ong etting the right sound. That's neither here nor there, new people should be focusing on getting great at subtractive synthesis and learning to do some basic FM sounds as well as getting good at sample manipulation. Those 3 tasks are a years long journey in and of themselves.

so my shopping list would be:

korg volca keys or bass (I prefer the bass, but I own an old Roland poly synth already)

USB keyboard controller with some knobs

1 or 2 channel audio interface with MIDI in and out

FL Studio or Ableton (you might want to try both as the workflow is very different outside of the ubiquitous piano roll and they excel at different things)

from there, just see how it goes

9yover 9 years ago

anyone want to sing a few songs for me? pretty PLEASE?!

I am hoping to get to scratch vocals and finish the demo for another song today, but so far being a dad on my Friday off is superseding musical concerns. I have however devised a list of band names:

Narrative Device

Funk Monkey

DC Offset

Negative Voltage Supply

Audible Product

Action Film

9yover 9 years ago

OFF TOPIC

stop thinking, plague cured

9yover 9 years ago

Complaints, Concerns, Errors, Suggestions, and Ideas!

a gentleman clicked the wrong tubescreamer when submitting, correct submission has been made, please delete the following:

http://equipboard.com/pros/paul-gilbert/keeley-modded-ibanez-ts9-mod-plus-tube-screamer#comments

9yover 9 years ago

Questions about Mic'ing guitar amps (and finding the right mic)

okay, well, make that record and if you're having trouble from a purely technical, negineering standpoint just post again with the new stuff and more pointed questions that are specific to the trouble spots and I will try to help you with some suggestions if the problems are just isolated sonic issues that can be addressed with better mic placement etc... beyond that I can only give you a little more general advice that will hopefully point you in a solid direction so you will not need anyone's help moving forward unless you want it

consider that technical limitations (by this I mean limited resources as well as a lack of technical, practical engineering knowhow) can force one to make decisions early on in the process (you've already made some just recording solo into a laptop) and that a sonic 'flaw' can be transformed into the centerpiece of a recording if handled creatively... there's a history of standout tracks that are iconic specifically BECAUSE THEY ARE TECHNICALLY IMPERFECT on various levels, but its an art in and of itself knowing what to exploit in this manner (heck, the entire garage rock genre is based around sloppy playing, sketchy sound quality and often nonsensical mixes, but its great fun because the folks who were seminal in the movement really knew how to play the ingenue)... apart from thinking your ideas through before beginning this time it may also be beneficial to rethink everything during the recording and mixing process in an attempt to 'get outside the box' of your original ideas if they begin to seem stale....

have you ever used Brian Eno's Oblique Strategy cards?

9yover 9 years ago

What I should have done when starting out...

personally I wish I hadn't let my sight reading get so band in the late 90s... in school jazzband I was mainly reading chord charts and then I played tons of rock music by ear, even on piano... my sight reading is pretty halting and atrocious now from lack of use and it slows me up a lot in certain situations.... keep your reading at its peak and if you can't read music, LEARN. Tab is apparently a useful notation method for GUITAR (I can barely make sense of it), but no one else uses it, so if you want to play in any group that contains more than guitar, drums and bass it really helps to read classical notation and read it well. It will also teach you how the piano works.

CAGED system.... I started with classical positions, but the CAGED system was a revelation to me, taking what's good about the classical method and making it super useful in all types of music. I didn't have to abandon what I already learned but it greatly expanded my ability to just jump in interpret most simple music once I know the key. I wish I had learned it right away. Study it now.

Stop worrying about the notes/chords and concentrate on how you approach them. From voicing to articulation. Never discount any technique from any form of music. Learn it all and add it to your arsenal.

Always try to surprise yourself.

Be a musician first and a guitarist second.

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

there are tons of them out there.... its been around a long time for a boutique design AND its been a samash/guitarcenter item for some time as well and they expect manufacturers to pour a lot of units into each storefront as well as stocking the online warehouses

keep your eyes peeled, they are worth no more than 60 bucks.... its only a super hot rodded SD1/TS9 type pedal if I recall.. I think the RC and AC boosters are low gain TS9's with dual tone controls and the BB is an SD1 with treb/bass and some voicing ideas from the original Marshall Bluesbreaker pedal. Its been awhile since I had them taken apart though. I really disliked the tone controls on all 3 designs as there's not really a way to get them close to flat as baseline to tweak your drive/boost setting. I expect that from a stock TS9/SD1, but why have the treble and bass if I can't get fairly flat and then adjust from there. The extra tone setting just made these pedals into a standard OD that had an extra control to befuddle me taking twice as long to dial in. But I don't enjoy twiddling with effects. If I want to twiddle knobs I will play a synthesizer. When I play guitar I just want to play the instrument with a minimum of fuss. Some guys prefer to play less guitar and treat their effects as synth modules more or less and play the pedalboard. The Xotics are good for folks ike that who might adjust their tone every song etc

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

used BBs are cheap anyway... I think I've had one or two obtained for about 40 bucks on flea bay

9yover 9 years ago

Questions about Mic'ing guitar amps (and finding the right mic)

Your main problem is in the arrangements (basic as they are), much of it sits in the same basic register. There's limited dynamic range and bandwidth in a recording so an efficient arrangement makes for an easier mix. Otherwise you have to tolerate (or, as you become more advanced EXPLOIT) frequency masking or really reshape background sounds with heavy EQ to make space for the parts that need to be forward, and while most complex mixes use this approach to an extent, the less EQ you apply to a recorded track the better it will generally sound.

You don't need more gear. Spend more time working everything out before pressing record or at least really think thru and experiment with your arrangements while overdubbing, trying multiple versions of each part with different timbres and in different registers so you have options at mix down if you weren't sure at the outset of what was going to work well. I am not saying you need to exclude happy accidents and spontanaeity, but I am saying you want to stake out spaces for those surprises to occur so that they can be heard with all their magic and power. This is really not that ahrd when you are a one man band. It gets trickier in a band environment because not everyone will always 'get it'.

Consider a Socratic approach to music; the unexamined note is not worth playing.

9yover 9 years ago

Equipment I Once Had

I take stuff off when I get rid of it and only review stuff I used to own prior to joining EB w/o adding it to my board mainly because of the clutter factor. My board is so loaded wth gear already. I have lost track of how much stuff I own, a round dozen guitars or more, probably a dozen keyboards and synthesizers, a half dozen amps.... that's a full equipboard already. My house looks like a music retailer, my bedroom is the guitar showroom and the rec room I share with the boy could be keyboards/studio equipment on my side of the room. Its toys r us on Lucian's side (with a few acoustic guitars hanging on the wall too). Oh, and the 'reading room' has a blonde vox ac30HW in it. I am really cautious about adding software too. I have virtually EVERYTHING on my desktop or laptop, but I only list the stuff I use all the time because its just outta control otherwise. And I usually only keep stuff I play/use a lot. I can't imagine what it would be like if I didn't have the rule of selling anything that hasn't been played in a year! That's the only good thing that came of being married besides my son (of course).

So anyone can list whatever they want, but for my part I look at my board and see a giant mess even with just the stuff I currently have.

9yover 9 years ago

Equipment I Once Had

dude, mine would scroll down forever... I am such an inveterate gear swapper

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

if you're going to play it, why not?

9yover 9 years ago

anyone want to sing a few songs for me? pretty PLEASE?!

I'll get mp3s with and without guide vocals out to you. I need to do guide vocals for most of them still and there are actually even more songs than I've posted so far. They're just not all this developed.

9yover 9 years ago

anyone want to sing a few songs for me? pretty PLEASE?!

okey doke... I am thinking I could give you a broad topic and a guide vocal to work around and then we can bounce ideas back and forth. With vocals/lyrics I am a better editor than author and performer. All the sogns are vaguely 'about something' or inspired by some life events (I have had an eventful decade right up to being widowed over the summer, so that accounts for the mopey nature of the recent stuff)

my music email address is [email protected]

we can take this collab to email moving forward

9yover 9 years ago

anyone want to sing a few songs for me? pretty PLEASE?!

okay, cool

again:

do you have a decent mic and a way to record?

some of these songs have vocal melodies written as I typically write melody or riffs out and then add the rest... are you cool getting demoes with nonsense vocals singing the notes as written and then making them your own?

do you want to write lyrics? because I don't, every line is a struggle

9yover 9 years ago

Questions about Mic'ing guitar amps (and finding the right mic)

1) there is no rule, whatever microphone(s) and position(s) serve(s) the arrangement... I like 2 mics, usually though. MONITOR in context... also, try recording a DI track at the same time as your amp track to give yourself options later to layer sounds with the same performance. If you are playing with heavy distortion I would consider using a distant mic at about a ayrd out on axis to get some room, it sounds muscley to me on heavy distortion to get some room chugging and some coupling from the guitar is you happen to be performing in the room with the amp. I prefer recording lead lines in the room and not from the control room if possible because it allows me to play the amp a bit more and get expressive, but its all cirumstancial. These days I do a lot of electronic music, but I add guitar or run synths or drum loops thru my guitar amps and I tend to do mid-distance micing, off axis with one mic. I don't even fiddle too much, I just get a sound that is great in the room and pick a spot for the microphone and if it sounds passable I hit record and generally get great results. A lot of the time I just use a USB mic out of sheer laziness. I would spend more time dialing in a great amp tone that doesn't have too much bass but still sounds full than I would spend on mic placement. I hear a lot of amature guitar recordings and the #1 problem is frequency response that eats up the wrong part o the mix. Generally there's too much bass (sub 300hz), a lot of mush around 400hz, not enough legit treble to add definition and too much high mid (1k to 5k) that takes up a lot of space and causes ear fatigue. Bass and treble can be handled at the amp by making a sound that SUITS THE MIX and not your notion of how you want to sound in your bedroom alone. The mids are a mix of amplifier response and mic placement, but a well dialed sound will be more forgiving to mic placement. I like vox ac30s because they are not harsh and while capable of deep bass are not boomy or mush down low. Spend more time dialing in a sound, not effects, but just the straight sound.

2) you can make a record with a pair of 57s, a behringer mixer and an 80s tape deck if you have a vision and enough knowhow to realize it... gear is immaterial, its nice to have it, but you don't need it to record. Good instruments help more than great recording gear and top shelf software. Why not just record a click track first from a cheap metronome like the little blue Korg (I used that in professional studios that didn't use computers for years, just allowed a track on the tape deck, ADAT or Alesis HD24 for click, problem solved... $5 investment), plug it into your audio input on the laptop no matter how shitty and record 5 or 6 minutes at the tempo you want, then build the song around it.

3) I'm not sure I understand your problem/question... doubling is simple and is a question of playing technique and precision. Sloppy doubles sound like crap. If it sounds bad, do it again until it sounds good.

4) keep at it, the only way to get good at something is to do it all the time...

EDIT: After writing my general response I followed your link, your recordings aren't terrible. Everyone is always learning and like all of us you have room to improve as an engineer BUT you have a lot of room to improve as a producer. I have some thoughts but I didn't listen closely as I am busy, multitasking this morning. If you want me to listen more carefully I will, but be prepared for a no-holds-barred critique of the entire production (that will include songs and arrangements.... perfect arrangements of tight songs record and mix themselves). I think I ay be able to give you some insights that will aid your next endeavor but you may not enjoy swallowing them at first.... caveat emptor

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

any cracks? how are the frets?

9yover 9 years ago

anyone want to sing a few songs for me? pretty PLEASE?!

I think Nik is singing, but heres another one:

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

mine's that bad... plenty of gear, widowed at 35... I could go on, but you crybabies would start bawling for me, and that's over the top

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

you have terrible luck with equipment... like that spector you modified.... how does one bassist experience so many equipment mishaps?

9yover 9 years ago

Complaints, Concerns, Errors, Suggestions, and Ideas!

http://equipboard.com/pros/j-d-simo/1969-marshall-basketweave-4x12-cabinet#comments

okay, here we have a specific year of marshall model 1960 cab, but its nothing like anything in current production... marshall no longer offers the same levant covering or the same basket grille cloth... the handles will be steel and not plastic as well... I've owned many an old amrshall cab and they just sound different than the new ones and are built better... even with new speakers they sound different... not even the vintage reissue cabs are the same (for instance, none have REAL pinstripe or basketweave and the grille cloth effects the reponse of the speakers AND there's no legit tall cab, the 1960TV is a slant, while vintage ones were straight cabs designed to go UNDER a standard 1960A cab)

I am thinking that while specifically labeling it by year is sill over the top, that old amps and cabinets with no modern version carrying all the same features should definitely get their own entry.... maybe something like "Marshall 1960A Cabinet pre-1980" ???

thoughts?

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

voodoo lab. the pedaltrain is designed for it

9yover 9 years ago

Gear Purchases

I guess I can tolerate teles, SGs and LPs because I have flat abs. Straight up and down so no contouring needed.... but maybe I should start drinking more beer and get something with some serious tummy contouring!

9yover 9 years ago

light break up

I meant volume the other way around, where a deluxe pushed into light breakup might offend the soundman. In theory your amp should really do the work for you. The deluxe reverb is known for its ear-friendly light OD... blackface fender is not great when pushed into full bore distortion, but all of them excel at gentler growling and crunching depending on how many decibels you want to tolerate to get there... little known fact, Ric Nielsen of Cheap Trick uses silverface deluxe reverbs chopped into head form. He just turns 'em up and elts rip, back in the day the marshall stacks were just for show.

9yover 9 years ago

Vox AC30 CC2 questions

I am not a huge fan of the goodsells, they sound more American.... great amps, just not that voxy in person... they are like the Matchless of Valco small pentode designs.... tighter, bigger, louder

I love my HC30... its a beast (as is every badcat I have ever used, especially the Wild Cat 40 with EL34s in cathode bias, yum) BUT if you seek a useable FX loop the matchless format is a HI-Z, unbuffered preamp out and power amp in on each channel, to you use LO-Z effects liker ack gear you need an external matching device like a DI and reamp package or a Dumblator/Kleinulator to get it to sound right. And any HI-Z stomps you put in the Matchless type loops need to have super short cable runs or you risk losing top end. A great trick with the EF86 fx loop is to put the amp on a loadbox and run the EF86 power amp out into a DI to add lush pentode harmonics to anything you would record direct. Its great for 80s sounds with chorus and compression straight to the recorder, but with the tone switch set for full bass its a great bass DI and I use it a lot on analog synths to warm them up too. You can even use it on mono FX returns to add sparkle, compression and maybe some grit to mix elements like mono reverbs, delays whatever... I am a huge fan of using it in conjunction with my TC X4 when mixing techno stuff. I set up a mono send, hit the X4 with the input set to low impedance and then output high impedance to the matchless EF86, dial the gain and DI back in. Adds tons of depth I can't get with plugins.

Also, Matchless and Badcat have much stiffer power filtering than even the reissue voxes, so they are punchier and firmer than an ac30 and don't give up the gooiness as easily (though you can brown them down a bit with a pair of smaller rectifiers over a single GZ34 thanks to the dual rectifier sockets)... the transformers are really overengineered too, so that adds bass and flattens the mids a bit when driving the output tubes. Different sound.... sort of like if Hiwatt decided to make a 30 watter! LOVE IT, but I have ac30s as well as the HC30 because they are only in the same camp, they are not interchangeable. The HC30 is INSANELY picky with pedals out front. Possibly the sketchiest pedal amp ever. It goes beyond tonal issues, the HC30 is gainier than vox on both of tis channels and dirt boxes have to be dialed conservatively to avoid tons of feedback even when the amp is set dead clean in 30 watt mode with the big rectifier!

another heads up, the master on newer voxes and matchlesses is good for more than just low volume dirt, it can lso be used to get punchier clean sounds by backing off the amount of gain into the power section a little thus reducing the strain on the rectifier(s).

PS: best tele sound ever? stereo ping pong slap echo into the HC30 and Tweed pro dialed in to sound as different as possible.

9yover 9 years ago

Complaints, Concerns, Errors, Suggestions, and Ideas!

shoutbox? aweome idea

9yover 9 years ago

Vox AC30 CC2 questions

oh... the ac30 is generally a mediocre pedal platform, just so you know

try a hiwatt for the big chime, voxy note bloom and a voicing that inhales effects :-)

EDIT: you may like the el84 based oranges, very pedal friendly and based on the ac15 and ac30 pretty heavily with a more neutral voicing (jimmy page mainly used the single channel AD30 head for the O2 reunion show and he sounded great even with an injured finger -- and if you recall the Page/Plant reunion of the 90s jimmy was using 90s Korg/Marshall made ac30 RIs and vintage examples, so clearly Page feels the oranges are more versatile because he owns a fleet of voxes, more than me I am sure)... voxier voiced amps sound better on their own, dry or with just a little echo and maybe some colored boost ala brian may, but the orange is less picky about dirt boxes. Voxes do not play well with everything out there (especially tubescreamers) and even with the pedals they do like (such as the rat, sd1 and hotcake) you have to dial the amp and stomps in very carefully in my experience. The ac30 likes delay and some modulation just fine though....

another good option is mid-sized tweed fender type amps. The Pro/Super/Bandmaster circuit has some of the upper mid magic of a vox but is a little firmer and broadband. My Pro has never met a dirtbox it doesn't like. Having global treble and bass controls means you can dial the normal channel in a lot better than a vox that is a 'like it or lump it' affair. I like it, but its not great with humbuckers unless you crank it or engage the bright caps (the modern ones have a bright switch, vintage ones don't), and once the bright caps are engaged you will experience some of the dirtbox pickiness of the top boost inputs.

If you go custom classic try doing the normal channel at 10 with a treble boost or a good, tweakable EQ type boost out front like an EQD tonejob or the classic colorsound overdriver. You will want to work your volume knob to back off the dirt. Also, all modern ac30s have a very good blobal master volume that produces great tone from about noon on up. Engaging the master tends to add a little marshalliness as youa re not working the power section as hard. Think plexi or JMP at 1:00 on the preamp dial....

9yover 9 years ago

The Hello-Thread: Please Allow Me To Introduce Myself πŸ‘‹

your gear doesn't look retro to me... just solid, reliable gear for stage and studio

9yover 9 years ago

Vox AC30 CC2 questions

the custom classic will probably work fine

9yover 9 years ago

light break up

deluxe reverb? turn the amp volume knob up some more, seriously.... need more grunt and mids? change the phase inverter tube from the stock 12AT7 to a 12AX7 and look at mid to low efficiency speakers with early breakup like a weber DT or something... you can bias it colder for earlier breakup and experiment with smaller rectifiers for more sag while doing so if you have knowhow too

a well maintained, properly biased mid-sized blackface amp should produce a light cowboy crunch when you dig in at gig volume... if your gig volume has to be low then consider switching to a Princeton reverb (maybe in a tall combo cab to accomodate a 12", but if you want light 60s American OD then I can attest that the Princeton is totally giggable in small clubs)... or try a brownface deluxe or tweed tremolux/Harvard if you can live without reverb

9yover 9 years ago

Vox AC30 CC2 questions

thy do 'beatles' well as they were designed to do that but the beatles only recorded one album with ac30s and then gauged up to 50s

if its cheap (especially if tis cheap and you can try it first or its from a seller with a great return policy) pull the trigger to get your vox feet wet but don't ditch your marshall

it might just get the vox sound you are thinking of... I find that most people don't actually know what an ac30 is supposed to sound like but have sounds in mind that are a little more ac50 or are totally U2, which is a really atypical use of the ac30 having all those low Z studio effects out front or an oddball, late JMI era 30 with the weird Albion transformer set (and prior to uforgettable fire the edge often used a roland jazz chorus with a distortion out front and these days his rig contains tweed harvards and various other amps depending on his whims, but I digress)

9yover 9 years ago

The Hello-Thread: Please Allow Me To Introduce Myself πŸ‘‹

1) welcome

2) wait, there is no 2

9yover 9 years ago